ingrids site

[krausy]

I do the same thing. I used to carry a camera with me all the time, but got out of the habit. I need to get back into it. I love my digital though----you get your results within minutes if needed, rather than waiting for the photo lab.

I DEFINITELY believe photography is an art form. Of course there are lots of ways to manipulate a photo, for special effects, but it all takes skill and an artful eye.

I think where the art of it gets skewed is when publications used re-touched photos of celebrities, or models, to take out the body "imperfections" if you will. Then you are just making an unrealistic photo of someone, just to make it "appealing" and sell the magazine.

...........and there's MY two pennies......................

[John Trevethan]

I think where the art of it gets skewed is when publications used re-touched photos of celebrities, or models, to take out the body "imperfections" if you will. Then you are just making an unrealistic photo of someone, just to make it "appealing" and sell the magazine.

This parallels the music industry exactly - we now have the tools to make a musical performance "perfect" (as in a mathematical sense), or to construct performances that never actually occurred. Although any technology can be used or misused (and even these terms are debatable) many people do belive that musicians, engineers and producers are sucking the emotion out of modern music.

This reminds me of a line from a King Crimson song: "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."

[krausy]

You got it, John!!!!! That is sooo dead on!!!!

This process goes on probably more than we know, and they get away with so much, except for those Ashlee Simpson/SNL moments and those Milli Vanilli moments when the secret of the "great talent" is revealed. And in both those cases they succumbed to the suggestions of the folks with the money, the producers, and of course the engineers did as they were instructed........


Way back when, it all came down to the live show----if you can't perform, then it becomes evident you can't reproduce what was created in the studio; either that, or the talent was never there to begin with.

[godisinthesilences]

man camphorvan sorry but your so wrong about photography its not even remotely funny. Not that difficult??? you definately chose the wrong subject to piddle upon.
I have studied photography and been a practicing professional photographer/photographic artist for well over 20 years. I also am a college instructor of photography.
Look if all you want to learn is how to take a snapshot... then yeah it isn't all that hard... and most of them are crap.
Being a great photographer is as much work... as much passion... as much difficulty as any other artform. I think before someone pisses all over a subject they should know all the various methodologies of what they are speaking about. Do you know how to use every type of camera? Do you know how to use every type of photographic process throughout history? Do you know of every specialization in the field? Next time you open a magazine, a newspaper, the internet think how they would be with no professional photographers to either create a mood, evoke an emotion or simply add to the text written with it.
Sorry but I took this as a very personal afront to my own work and all the work I see all photographer's do.

[lastgoldstar]

Oh yeah, I definitely think photography's an art form. I'd say that I'm much better when it comes to using Photoshop for manipulation as opposed to actually taking the photograph, myself.

I'm a crap photographer, really, but I find it all very fascinating. I take my digital practically everywhere, and snap pictures of anything and everything. And then I have a habit of buying old cameras that I never use, just because I like having them. Used to have an old Brownie (I think that's what they're called), but I think I've lost it.

[marcello09]

I absolutely agree with you, Gods. My brother has been making a living as a photographer for about twenty years now, and until recently he's hardly made a dime off of it. But he's now got an enormous amount of experience and knowledge to draw from, and it seems to be finally paying off.

Like a painter, he's always been obsessed with light -- how to catch it at the right time, at the right angle, with the right lens, the right camera... and he often has to make all of these decisions in a split second! Not a career for the faint of heart.

I've occasionally accompanied him on his photo shoots and, to be honest, he drives me completely batty! He has an attention to detail that I sometimes don't have the patience for. But the results are very, very impressive. Subtle, but evocative...

I wish I could share some of his work with you, but he still works almost entirely with old-school film and print, so very little of his work has been digitized. Next time we chat I'll ask if he can email me a few samples.

[sheisnot]

I think that little jibe at photography was a can of worms just waiting to be opened.

[Silver Moon]

Yeah, Gods I agree!

I can take pictures all day long in any angle and they will look like crap! There is so much stuff you have to know about doing photography... Like when you find a picture that you really like in a magazine, or something... A lot more work went in to making it look like it does then people may think.

-K-

[godisinthesilences]

sheisnot...
i realized after i got my hackles up that it probably was a jab at putting ingrid down. Whatever... If you don't like her then just say it plain and simple.
To be honest, I would say its pretty difficult to assume you know anything about someone you have no knowledge of on a personal level. Of course anything in fandom has mostly to do with presumptions.

I appreciate all of those who got my back on this issue. That really just was a below the belt comment and didn't need to be raised.

[John Trevethan]

I think it's fairly common for people to assume that something is easier than it is if they don't really understand it.

For example, a concert pianist makes playing the piano look so easy - an oversimplified statement might be "All you have to do is push down on the keys and the music comes out!" Of course almost everyone would understand that this is a bogus statement although technically it is true. However when you begin to enter into more recent technology such as photography the statement might be "All you have to do is point and shoot!" or with computers "Oh, the computer does the work for you..."

Now, relating this to computers... my wife is a professional graphics artist. She continually gets the "Well, you just push buttons and the computer does it for you" comment from her mother who is a traditional artist in the areas of painting, sculpture and various crafts. Her mother doesn't really understand what's going on with the computer, so she makes an ignorant (yet technically true) assumption. Yes, my wife does push buttons and the computer executes the commands. However there are thousands of buttons to be pushed, and you have to know exactly when to push them. Further, all of the myriad of creative decisions must be made just as in painting, sculpture, music... and even photography.

[krausy]

Eloquently stated, John T!!!!

[marcello09]

Eloquently stated, John T!!!!

Here's a classic story from my old business class about the value of knowledge and experience:

A factory is having problems with it's equipment. They hire a consultant who walks into the factory with a piece of chalk. He puts a chalk mark on a piece of equipment and says "Hit your hammer there." The factory owners hit the hammer on the chalk mark and all the equipment starts functioning properly. The consultant hands them a bill for $1000.

The factory owners react angrily to the bill. "All you did was put a chalk mark on our equipment. How can that possibly be worth $1000?"

The consultant says "Give me a minute and I'll give you an itemized bill."

The consultant scribbles on a piece of paper for a minute and hands them a bill that breaks out the costs of his services. The bill says:

"Chalk: $0.10;
Knowing where to put the chalk mark: $999.90"

[heartofdavid]

To me, it's the creative decisions (the passion) that makes something 'art'. I think a lot of people can become technically adept and master the techniques of different art forms, but it doesn't make them artists.

It's the way their mind arranges their ideas into something that can be represented and brought to an audience that makes someone an artist, IMO. With photography, for example, a lot of people can click and shoot. But how many can do it so the image that is captured touches the emotions of the person who sees that photograph, or it makes them think, or whatever?

Or with writing, which is what I do, you can know every grammar rule, be a perfect speller, know all about structuring and characterization and plot, all those things, but it doesn't mean you'll ever write well.

I'm totally with gods and JT on this.

[camphorvan]

i've read some of the previous posts. not all.

please refer to my statement; 'correct me if i'm wrong' in the post some of you are referring to. Seems some quite angry (defensive?) reactions were forthcoming.

I never said, at any point that photography was not an art form. Merely that it was not that hard a one to master, (or at least that it's easier to be a master photographer than a master artist). The reason behind this is because by it's very nature the finished product is not 'created' but 'captured', if you see what I mean. Doesn't mean I value photography any less or more than any other art form.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I'm not. I don't think I am. But then, I have a right to an opinion without having my character derided.

Because my opinion might not be agreeable with yours, does not give you (I say 'you' in a general sense), the right to make snide comments and so on. It's how we identitfy a civilized society isn't it? The right of individuals to have opinions and their own viewpoints.

I am quite dissapointed in some of posters on the this thread. Some offered balanced arguments, which differed from mine, which is fine. That's what it's all about.

Anyway, this is boring me now.

[sheisnot]

sheisnot...
i realized after i got my hackles up that it probably was a jab at putting ingrid down. Whatever... If you don't like her then just say it plain and simple.
To be honest, I would say its pretty difficult to assume you know anything about someone you have no knowledge of on a personal level. Of course anything in fandom has mostly to do with presumptions.

What? What "below the belt" comment are you referring to? I don't recall writing anything in reply to you.