The Next Day

[swordofdestiny]

hey sod... why do you feel the need to control the discussion? so you're bored blah blah blah... whofrikencares? you dont have to participate, right?

Baht, what evidence do you have to the contrary? We know that lp sales are down, why lie about it? Wandermunde has sold less than 500 copies. These forum sites are dead. Need I say more.

And Simon youre dead wrong. The tour was canceled due to lack of interest. RAH was the exception to the rule but the place only holds 4000 people in a city of 13 million. Its hard to sustain a tour on the back of one show.

I think the persistent downer conversations here are directly related to the downer output by the artist. You want upbeat... then give us something upbeat to talk about.

Well Chad... You can either remove your comment because you know it's abuse and therefore wrong or I can report it to the moderator and she can remove it and maybe remove you too.

This is a music forum not some dirty chat line where you spout verbal abuse at people because they challenge you.

[baht habit]

Baht, what evidence do you have to the contrary? We know that lp sales are down, why lie about it? Wandermunde has sold less than 500 copies. These forum sites are dead. Need I say more.

Please be assured that I asked a sincere question. I was not and am not attempting to one-up you here or argue, as I was merely interested in learning what evidence you happened to have that would lead you to project such confidence in your conclusion. I think you made a good point about the sales of Wandermunde, if that is an accurate account of the figures. I never would have taken that release into consideration. I admit that I didn't even purchase that one, as I wouldn't consider that one to be a Sylvian release - I suppose I am part of that majority who are killing the sales due to indifference.
But I am surprised that you would look at the recent topics on this forum and then deem it as 'dead'. Would it be that you consider it 'dead' because you don't happen to feel any kinship with the topics that are being posted?

Believe me when I state that I do have empathy with those who are malcontented with Sylvian's recent musical directions. There are numerous amounts of musical artists, whose music that I once enjoyed, who then veered away and drifted off into a much more commercial and lucrative direction, to the degree that I could no longer listen to their work. So I do comprehend the sense of disappointment that fans have when a favored musician no longer creates product that is targeted towards their musical tastes and preferences.
Yet I would never hold it against the artist for following whatever direction they should so choose and I surely would not be so irritated as to allow my disappointment to bring me to the point where I felt contempt for those fans who do happen to take an active interest in the subsequent output.

Within this topic, we've just seen the phrase 'emperor's new clothes' used again - it's popped up on this site a few times. Though no offense may even be intended, what one insinuates when that phrase is used is that someone is being duped - just mindlessly allowing someone else to 'pull the wool' ( <---have I just made a pun on the album Died In The Wool? perhaps ) over them and pretending to get something they don't truly get for fear of seeming unintelligent.
In this instance, either the artist is being duped or the fan is being duped but either way, that phrase basically comes across like an unfair assessment on the judgement of others, and just as derogatory as the 'blind devotion' charge.

[Mainzy]

Using the term ‘emperor’s new clothes' was in no way used to cause offense, if it did then i apologise.

I would say that saying that i was being Passive aggressive was more threatening, but maybe I am not as "precious" as others and understand that this, very good forum, is about opinions, discussion, nostalgia ( <---have I just made a pun on the album Brilliant trees? perhaps ) and new info.

It was used in the sense that there are some who may be in denial as to how bad or good a song is because of the blind devotion that they give the artist, for example, I am a hopeless Numanoid, have been all my life. I have purchased, as I have with David, every release, every bootleg, and attended every tour over the years.

Numans late 80`s and early 90`s music was absolute trash, I see that now, but at the time I would have been up for fighting anyone who questioned my idol. That is ‘emperor’s new clothes', and believe me I have been the same with David over the years.

I actually like his new releases, not all but the vast majority, I was listening to Died In The Wool in the car on the way to work, so I am not talking about myself here just defending the right for other to voice opinions on a forum (the clue is in the name) and denying the right of others to try and stop a discussion (and potentially ban others) just because they disagree with their own opinion, this for me is bordering on bullying.

I need a rest and some Coffee

[Simonp]

And Simon youre dead wrong. The tour was canceled due to lack of interest. RAH was the exception to the rule but the place only holds 4000 people in a city of 13 million. Its hard to sustain a tour on the back of one show.

I think the persistent downer conversations here are directly related to the downer output by the artist. You want upbeat... then give us something upbeat to talk about.

"the place only holds 4000 people in a city of 13 million" - not sure quite what you're getting at with this to be honest. What evidence do you have that the tour was cancelled due to lack of interest? Do you have the number of tickets sold for every venue that you could perhaps share with us?

The persistent downer conversations have nothing to do with the downer output by David Sylvian. It's the constant negative comments by the likes of yourself towards those who you call the "blindly devoted". You seem to have a real issue with people who enjoy Uncommon Deities, Wandermunde and DITW because its not the music YOU want to see Sylvian releasing.

What I don't understand is why you waste your energies constantly berating those that still enjoy listening to Sylvian's output no matter how far removed from Secrets of the Beehive it is. You quite obviously no longer enjoy what he is doing now, so why not just enjoy the music from his back catalogue you DO enjoy and stop holding out for another SOTB/Brilliant Trees or Gone To Earth.

[swordofdestiny]

I apologize if I pissed anybody off here. I like my Sylvian. I like my Sylvian a lot. It's the only music I really care about. When I read negative remarks about him or his music I respond as if a family member was being criticized. They may do some things you don't like, but I defend them.

To Mainzy. Sorry. Chad, apologies.

Thanks to all the fans who support David.

[inkinthewell]

"the place only holds 4000 people in a city of 13 million" - not sure quite what you're getting at with this to be honest. What evidence do you have that the tour was cancelled due to lack of interest? Do you have the number of tickets sold for every venue that you could perhaps share with us?

I posted this in january 2012, 2 months before the tour was supposed to begin:
"Got some info on the sales of 3 out of 4 italian dates:
Padua (March 1st) has yet to sell 510 tickets out of 2320 available;
Milan (March 2nd) has still 164 tickets out of 1532;
Bologna (March 5th) has 496 out of 950"
Which means 3632 tickets were sold out of 4802, not a sell-out, but it's a darn good 75%. And I know people that hadn't bought tickets not because they had no interest in the music, but because the tickets were too expensive (which is absolutely true).
However, in spite of 'lack of interest' and 'expensive tickets', the prize for Biggest Issue Of The Tour goes to: 'DAVID'S BROKEN BACK'!

[Simonp]

Well those sales figures look pretty good to me given that they were produced 2 months before the tour was due to start? Whatever people say i still think Sylvian still has a reasonably strong fanbase and okay it might not be in the same numbers it was when he was releasing SOTB it still shows that people are interested in his musical output

[Chad]

ah the ole emperor has no pretention argument again. Thats a rat hole... grow some thicker skin guys. Someone needs to say it sucks when it sucks

Where did you get those numbers Ink? The numbers I saw were a lot worse than that. Especially Italy, it was more like 25% sold. You have to remember it was the middle of the euro crisis at the time. I have a friend in the music business that has access to both record and ticket sales numbers. He pretty much confirmed what I have said here. If I remember right, manafon sales were right around 8.5K worldwide. That includes both ltd editions. Pretty dismal if you think about it.

Simon I have no idea what you are referring to. I dont ever recall berating anybody. I was just defending myself and maybe got a bit pissed at SOD but I never put people down for an opinion. I do remember checking on sales during the tour and there were just a few dates that were selling well and those were Glasgow & London. Nobody wanted to see this thing live. Everybody wanted the best of tour. Even though Victim of Stars was released right before the tour was to commence.

Uncommon Deities does absolutely nothing for me. Wandermunde is actually not that bad but most of his new stuff leaves me feeling depressed and bored. I would settle for a Nine Horses record or another great single like World Citizen. Just no more manafon remakes or blemish retakes. This has grown so old and has really tried the patience of a lot of die hard fans.

[Mainzy]

I apologize if I pissed anybody off here. I like my Sylvian. I like my Sylvian a lot. It's the only music I really care about. When I read negative remarks about him or his music I respond as if a family member was being criticized. They may do some things you don't like, but I defend them.

To Mainzy. Sorry. Chad, apologies.

Thanks to all the fans who support David.

You dont need to say sorry to me bud, I understand fully, I am exactly the same.

You didnt upset me at all, and you shouldnt worry if you did

I think that David is one of the best music gods of our or any other time as well. I played a friend of mine some David the other day and now she cant get enough of his music so I know it still holds a high level of apeal.

[Simonp]

Simon I have no idea what you are referring to. I dont ever recall berating anybody. I was just defending myself and maybe got a bit pissed at SOD but I never put people down for an opinion. I do remember checking on sales during the tour and there were just a few dates that were selling well and those were Glasgow & London. Nobody wanted to see this thing live. Everybody wanted the best of tour. Even though Victim of Stars was released right before the tour was to commence.

Uncommon Deities does absolutely nothing for me. Wandermunde is actually not that bad but most of his new stuff leaves me feeling depressed and bored. I would settle for a Nine Horses record or another great single like World Citizen. Just no more manafon remakes or blemish retakes. This has grown so old and has really tried the patience of a lot of die hard fans.

A best of tour was the last thing I wanted - he'd already done that with Everything & Nothing and The World is Everything tours. On the last tour Sylvian looked as bored as the audience to be honest. I was actually quite excited about the line up of the Implausible tour and it would've been interesting to see what he performed on that tour and the visuals that accompanied it.

I love Uncommon Deities and rate it really highly amongst Sylvian's releases. I love the work he has produced with Jan Bang and Erik Honre. I do agree with you on the manafon/blemish remakes - enough already. Lets hear some new stuff. I haven't actually listened to Wandermunde all that much to be honest.

[baht habit]

Using the term ‘emperor’s new clothes' was in no way used to cause offense, if it did then i apologise.

It was used in the sense that there are some who may be in denial as to how bad or good a song is because of the blind devotion that they give the artist

It is a bit amusing that you apologize for not meaning to cause offense, then go on to explain your intent was to express that others are in some sense of denial which impairs their judgement and renders them incapable of determining the worth of a song.
I could get the gist from the rest of your post that you personally feel that some sort of blind devotion can be a positive thing, but such a charge is basically demeaning at its core, in that it is predicated on the assumption that a person lacks discernment and merely follows like sheep. Plus it only feeds into the false narrative that the brashest malcontent would be eager to create - a narrative wherein they confidently will assert that their tastes and preferences are superior to all others - a narrative wherein they can unjustly label another person as 'pretentious' while knowing absolutely nothing about that person other than that they have different tastes and preferences - all due to this dismissal of another person as some 'blind devotee'.
Again, I would think that insightful and rational people on this forum could easily refrain from belittling others while expressing their opinions. It really shouldn't be all that hard to simply state that one enjoys or doesn't enjoy the artistic path that Sylvian is following, without resorting to taking shots at others or making charges of "pretension", or "blind devotion", or that "emperor's new clothes" thing.

[Chad]

rat hole....

What a waste of time baht. I dont care if you manaholics get your feelings hurt. Its just an opinion, not life or death. And besides... the numbers speak for themselves. We ain't buyin it anymore (literally).

I personally think the phrase is fitting.

[dconnery1966]

Well folks this will be my last ever post, had
enough of all the bitching and personal attacks,
Unfortunately some take it far more seriously than others

[Simonp]

Dougie just try and ignore them mate - it's difficult I know but it's good to have you here and would be a shame to see you go

[baht habit]

Dougie just try and ignore them mate - it's difficult I know but it's good to have you here and would be a shame to see you go

Dougie, I've got to agree with Simon. Please don't let this sort of thing disrupt your excellent contributions to the site. That is exactly what this person wants. He's only got 5 posts, for goodness sake. A few years ago, we experienced this very same thing on a much grander scale with another malcontent and he eventually faded away. So this too shall pass.
I'll vow not to engage him, if that is what every one else would prefer. His most recent post - filled with such utter disrespect - was exactly the sort of response I had hoped to elicit with my previous posts.
Does anyone recall the 'Trauma Therapy' thread? I see no reason to provoke him anymore. I'll let it rest.