John Tilbury in The Wire - comments on Manafon

[baht habit]

wow baht ... dickheadus-assholitis can actually be cured. you should find a good therapist and get this fixed.

it would actually be better if you did call me names rather than subject me to endless psychotic rants. one thing is for sure, i never come down on people for their opinions the way you do. it would almost be funny if it weren't directed at me so much. you should step back and see it for what it is.

No no Scott, I would always try my very best and not resort to stooping to any such level of expressing myself with coarse language or attacks of such a personal nature. I'll calmly choose to leave the low brow remarks to the guy who is far much better at it and obviously more comfortable in doing so. In that respect, you definitely are the better man than I.
And be sure that I (and evidently a few others on this board) took note that rather than actually engage in a dialogue with regards to having any debate or actually attempt to refute the challenge I posed above, once again you've resorted to ad hominem abuse.
If you deem it necessary to 'call me names' simply because I took you on about this baseless assessment of Mr Tilbury's character:
"Interesting... I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise."
...then I suppose I should accept those names with pride.

I did find Mr Tilbury's initial comment very funny...made me wonder if he's that keen on our Dave's music. I do wonder if he views Manafon as a relatively mainstream record, which arguably it is.

That is definitely an interesting comment Blemished. Once Sylvian had added his contributions, would any of the EAI artists have viewed the unique sounds they created in their sessions for Sylvian as more commercial than their usual output??? I sure wish that Jon Abbey still felt it was productive to peruse this forum, for he is obviously the one person who could provide concrete insight.

[ScottR]

this is a classic rant here:

[
And so in this instance, I felt compelled to challenge you yet again when I read how you attempted to carry out yet another 'drive-by shooting' of a post - this time on Mr Tilbury, who is actually quite an intriguingly multi-faceted and outspoken individual with very unique views on not only music but politics and certain norms of society, a well-trained pianist who has proven in the past that he can deftly handle a numerous amount of musical styles, and a man who also suffered through an unfortunate stroke last year yet continues on performing with admirable determination...but perhaps you wouldn't have the interest nor inclination to learn of any of that. You'd prefer to malign and pigeonhole a person based on the sole fact that you don't like the content of Manafon....and you apparently prefer never to be challenged.

how the hell did you derive all of this from my original posting baht? you've lost your fricken mind.if you go back and read the post, I actually agreed with the guy. you make it sound like I caused his stroke.

lol... i give up. keep on trollin away baht. pretty soon the whole list will have a foe filter on you ... lol

[opiate]

[missouriman]

Mr Tilbury may have a problem with David Sylvian, but his cash is a different matter. Old hippies love money like anybody else.

Plonk, plonk, plink, plonk, ca-ching!

[Adrian]

was going to post but can't be bothered anymore.

[Foales Arishes]

was going to post but can't be bothered anymore.

Yep... When I - only recently - discovered the music of DS I was glad there seemed to be a decent forum for learning more about his music, which I have to an extent and am grateful for it... but these pathetic slanging matches are just too tedious.

So that’s it from me, not that I've contributed much, but I can't be bothered to read this drivel anymore.

Exit - Delete

[kitaj]

I don't think this forum has become all mushing drivel or something. I think you can still separate the wheat from the chaff, as thoughtful, considerate and helpful postings go. it's too easy just to abandon ship like that.

I would agree with missouriman's reaction to Tilbury's dis/interest - not quite so cynically, but I do think he's really being a bit - sorry for the word - squareheaded or the like.
I'm always puzzled when valuable musicians can't seem to find anything valuable whatsoever in pop music. hey - are these guys dead down there?

[missouriman]

I don't see the value in Tilbury and his ilk playing to tiny audiences (sitting or buying) and feeling somehow superior because of it. That whole "We create for ourselves and each other" mentality ensures I avoid all and everything by them. DS still understands that at the end of the day, Jim that without $ you are screwed.

I actually very much appreciate being introduced to these musicians by David and have explored their works since AND like some of it. But if Tilbury insists on being so insular and precious about his craft then forget it. I listened to a few pieces by him on Youtube and it left me cold. My cash remains in pocket for more deserving projects ahead.

PS
As for the tribal warfare here... Move on. There are other forums for these kind of personal feuds.

PPS
I know Baht likes Tilbury and I respect that, but please don't start on me cos of the above opinion, BH. It is an opinion not a declaration of war.

[ScottR]

So whatever happened to that Manafon documentary, I could have swore that was available online somewhere. Now I'm curious about this JT guy. To be honest though, aside from Fennesz I'm not sure I would hurry to ring any of these guys up based on these performances. I'm sure because of the way it was recorded and edited that they could have easily been taken out on context. Thats why I wanted to check out the doco to see for myself.

[kitaj]

Scott, I think you got that wrong - the interview we're talking about on this thread is in the new Wire mag i.e. on print. the Amplified Gesture doc from a year ago does feature Tilbury, but he's not saying anything like that or talking about Manafon, or DS for that matter there.

[baht habit]

I know Baht likes Tilbury and I respect that, but please don't start on me cos of the above opinion, BH. It is an opinion not a declaration of war.

And please be sure that I respect your opinion and personal preference, for as I always like to point out - we listen with different ears. I hope you can realize that I actually 'don't start on' anyone due their opinion. If I happen to pose a defensive challenge, it is normally due to what I feel is an unfair attack on something or someone which just so happens to appeal to me.
To use this recent thread using the hubbub of Tilbury and the Scott Bahts as an example...
after reading that Tilbury expressed dislike for a certain Scott Walker track, ScottR wrote this:

"I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise."

Can't we plainly read this as another attempt on ScottR's part to label a musician who played on Manafon as a pretentious type?...Without really knowing one thing of this man, Scott declares him a fake who would have changed his personal opinion because it was a musician like Scott Walker, who supposedly leans heavily more to the experimental side of things. I just happened to think that was unfair on ScottR's part, then simply pointed that out and then the obscenity gets hurled at me. And more wackiness ensues.

Rhetorically, what if a member around here happened to have insulted someone who is truly loved and admired - let's say, Mick Karn - in such a fashion?

I suppose some people around here sure do perceive me as intolerant of differing opinions, preferences and viewpoints. I assure you that is not the case. Even if you don't agree with me - and you happen to feel for some reason that it is fair to just boldly accuse those of being pompous or pretentious with very little to go on, I hope now you can at least realize where I am usually coming from. I know full well I am a windbag, as kitaj correctly pointed out. But if you read closely, I think it is accurate that I don't challenge opinions - just the disrespectful manner in which they may be unfairly expressed. The point is that I don't quite comprehend why any of these musicians (nor their listeners) should be scorned or ridiculed due to the music they make or the way they present themselves. It should be easy enough just to make the statement that something or someone isn't appealing to one's personal taste without feeling the need to be so discourteous, shouldn't it?

so thanks missouriman, I'll now take your excellent advice and move on.

[ScottR]

Honestly Baht my mind hadn't gone there but since yours has, just for giggles I plugged Scott Walker and pretentious into google.

It came back with almost 15,000 hits.

LOL ...

[missouriman]

Honestly Baht my mind hadn't gone there but since yours has, just for giggles I plugged Scott Walker and pretentious into google.

It came back with almost 15,000 hits.

LOL ...

And David and Pretentious gets only 2480 hits. We have a winner!

[ScottR]

Honestly Baht my mind hadn't gone there but since yours has, just for giggles I plugged Scott Walker and pretentious into google.

It came back with almost 15,000 hits.

LOL ...

And David and Pretentious gets only 2480 hits. We have a winner!

LOL ... So if I understand Baht correctly, my thinking that SW is pretentious somehow diminishes his opinion in someway... ? Let me ask you this Baht, is it not ok to think anything is pretentious then? I'm not exactly sure why this would bother anyone.

[baht habit]

LOL ... So if I understand Baht correctly, my thinking that SW is pretentious somehow diminishes his opinion in someway... ? Let me ask you this Baht, is it not ok to think anything is pretentious then? I'm not exactly sure why this would bother anyone.

Ugh. Well, I was quite prepared to act on the suggestion of missouriman and move on... but since you felt the need to address me personally, then I will gladly reply to your questions.
Even though I thought that my point was made somewhat cogently in my most recent previous post, I do seem to have a nasty habit of attempting to be as thorough as possible in my expression of thought, so I can understand how my views can get muddled as I elaborate more on them. So...

If you personally find Scott Walker to be pretentious based on solid facts that you happen to know dealing with him and his music, then I believe that no one should actually have any problem with that. I know that I would not, even if I personally don't quite comprehend the logic behind charging anybody else with pretending to be something they are not, based merely on perception without knowing particular details about the person.

But to get back on point, the only challenge on this issue I ever posed to you, ScottR, was over the way you assumed that Tilbury would be the sort of person who would alter his negative opinion of something he wasn't all that fond of, once he was informed of who the artist is. The accusation you made seemed to be baseless to me, and I questioned you. Here was the quote again:

"I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise."

I simply questioned the premise and the absence of doubt you expressed. And since you subsequently admitted that you know not much at all of Tilbury, I can't help but conclude that this is another example of your determined intent to malign anyone who happened to take part in the recording of Sylvian's Manafon. And you preferred not to dispute me but rather curse me and then engage in some ad hominem abuse to discredit me rather than address the issue or at least clarify what you were trying to convey with the words I quoted above.