Sylvian - the next stage

Talk about anything David Sylvian related.

Sylvian - the next stage

Postby Simonp on Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:08 am

It's really interesting to look at Sylvian's work and how it has progressed over the years. I mean his most recent output has been, in my mind, some of the best work of his career. That said if you were to compile a CD of Sylvian's work from Dead Bees onwards what would the tracklisting look like?

1. The World Is Everything
2. Wonderful World
3. The Heart Knows Better (remix)
4. Darkest Dreaming
5. Snow Borne Sorrow
6. Playground Martyrs
7. Transit
8. Linoleum
9. Exit/Delete
10. Ballad Of A Deadman
11. Messenger
12. A Fire In The forest
MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON MANAFON
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Re: Sylvian - the next stage

Postby godisinthesilences on Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:47 pm

Simonp wrote:It's really interesting to look at Sylvian's work and how it has progressed over the years. I mean his most recent output has been, in my mind, some of the best work of his career. That said if you were to compile a CD of Sylvian's work from Dead Bees onwards what would the tracklisting look like?

1. The World Is Everything
2. Wonderful World
3. The Heart Knows Better (remix)
4. Darkest Dreaming
5. Snow Borne Sorrow
6. Playground Martyrs
7. Transit
8. Linoleum
9. Exit/Delete
10. Ballad Of A Deadman
11. Messenger
12. A Fire In The forest


This seems quite a perfect list which i would add "thalheim", "the Librarian", "Orpheus", and "maya".
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Postby Simonp on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:03 pm

How could I forget The Librarian, one of the best tracks on SBS!
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Postby Melaszka on Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:30 pm

I'd definitely want "The Librarian" in there, too. Plus "Blemish" (Friedman mix), "Wanderlust" and "Krishna Blue".
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Postby baht habit on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:04 pm

1. The World Is Everything - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Watanabe
2. Wonderful World - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Sylvian and Jansen
3. The Heart Knows Better (remix) - lyrics and music by Sylvian - remix by Sweet Billy Pilgrim (Tim Elsenberg)
4. Darkest Dreaming - lyrics and music by Sylvian - credit for sample usage goes to Gasparyan
5. Snow Borne Sorrow - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Jansen
6. Playground Martyrs - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Jansen
7. Transit - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Fennesz
8. Linoleum - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Vrenna
9. Exit/Delete - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Masakatsu
10. Ballad Of A Deadman - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Jansen
11. Messenger - lyrics and music by the band Blonde Redhead
12. A Fire In The forest - lyrics by Sylvian - music by Sylvian and Fennesz

It also seems as though a large majority of his most recent work (much as the ones you've singled out here) has relied primarily on others to come up with the actual music, doesn't it? He has only been partially responsible for what we are listening to, and that mainly being the lyrical content.

And delving deeper, I would estimate that at least 80% of the songs he has released since Dead Bees On A Cake have been collaborative in some way. Just a question to ponder: Doesn't knowing that make it a little harder to conclude that this period would be the best part of his overall career, when the many other musicians deserve the bulk of the credit for the music that we are listening to?
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Postby godisinthesilences on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:26 pm

hhmm it makes one wonder if all music isn't a collaborative effort? Everyone works with someone else and bounces ideas and more off them. Everyone is influenced by someone or something. So everything in life would fall under collaboration. I think the notion behind this topic was more the strength over all of the music put forth under david's name, be it collaborative or specifically solo efforts. I think whatever david takes part in turns into something more or better than it may have been without his influence. (I think the song Messenger is a perfect example of that).
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Postby Burnsjed on Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:09 pm

I have always found the song written by xxxx to be a bit of a joke.

Take Japan, basically Sylvian is credited as writing the songs, yet what would those songs be without Mick's bass and Steve's drums?

How much of Sting's 'Dream Of The Blue Turtle's' was actually written by him?
He clearly wasn't telling Omar Hakim what to do on Drums, Branford Marsalis what to play on sax or Kenny Kirkland what piano solo to play.

The 'song writer' puts together a basic frame and the musicians fill it in to make the song complete.
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Postby baht habit on Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:42 pm

Wow, I am astounded by the disregard towards the art of composition. I can only conclude that you haven't had much experience in creating songs or aiding to record music. Fortunately, I have. I will attempt to be as brief as possible...i will probably fail :)
Once upon a time, I was a session musician mainly in the active role of drummer. A songwriter would bring their copyrighted chords, lyrics and melodies and most of the time my colleagues and I were given nothing more than guidelines that which we would build upon. Never would we have considered ourselves to be composers, since we were basically fleshing out the ideas already composed by the songwriter. It is one thing to come up with individual parts, which is what we did...in contrast to the songwriter who most likely spent hours upon hours actually writing the song.
Also, once upon a time, I was a contributing member of an original band. In this case, the lineup was basic---a vocalist/guitarist - a bassist - a keyboardist - myself on drums. The vocalist/guitarist initially contributed the bulk of the material we performed since he was an incredible natural and seemed to have worthwhile ideas flowing profusely from his mucho awesome self. He would introduce his chords, lyrics and melody lines to us and we would work up correlating parts in an attempt to best serve the song. This we would call 'orchestration', opposed to composition. The song was already written...the song could be performed acoustically without any of the other members...the song existed on it's own without our contributions. This was always a sore point with the keyboardist, who incorrectly felt that because he managed to follow the preconceived chord structure with some basic degree of understanding, then he should also receive credit for writing the song. But since his sorry @ss was busy smoking dope while the songwriter was busy toiling away at his craft, there was no way he would receive credit for something he never came close to creating. He basically played along.
After some time, the vocalist/guitarist would collaborate with myself on certain songs. In these cases, the songs were not yet complete and I would take what was already written and perhaps come up with a middle eight (or what we call a bridge) or perhaps a necessary coda. Sometimes I would only contribute lyrics when the vocalist/guitarist felt his words were not strong enough. But since I was actually involved in the preliminary writing process, I would rightfully receive a songwriting credit.
I am running on and I apologize. You made a great mention of Sting and the Dream Of The Blue Turtles. Would you be surprised to learn that a good deal of those songs were written long before those stellar musicians were brought in to 'orchestrate' them? I know for a fact that We Work The Black Stream was originally written in the mid-seventies by Sting for his band Last Exit and the piece was then titled Savage Beast. The lyrics were obviously different but the chords and melodies were the same. The supporting 'orchestrations' that members of Last Exit contributed were obviously different from what was on the Blue Turtles record, but the tune is the same and can be easily recognized. Sting also worked up many of the songs in demo form on the Synclavier and that helped his backing musicians to know their roles. They may have added personal flair to the proceedings but those songs were written by Sting and he deserves the sole credit as composer. You may recall that Shadows In The Rain was originally done with the members of The Police in a totally dissimilar arrangement. But the song is what it is. The song was written by Sting...long before he assembled the Blue Turtles band.
I hope I was able to convey my point during all this rambling --- the essence of a pop song is chords, lyrics, melodies---please don't demean the creativity and work a true composer does.
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Postby Burnsjed on Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:12 am

I actually played in a band for 10 years, so am totally familiar with the composition of songs etc.
But I find it very interesting that in your mind (and others) the writing of lyrics deserves credit as being part of the collaboration, yet Branford's sax, say in Shadows In The Rain (sure it was this track) is not.
Not sure if you have ever seen the documentary about the recording of this album, but while Branford and Omar were playing their respective parts, and Sting was in the mixing room, Sting had turned off the sound not long in to Branford's recording as he didn't like it.
When Branford and Omar returned to the mixing room to hear that Sting wanted a 2nd take, Omar pleaded to Sting to listen to it Branford's piece again, and the rest is history as they say.
In you mind that might be 'personal flair', but in mine it is far more important then say your writing of the lyrics.
As I have said earlier, for me the vocals are just another melody/instrument, and I am not overly concerned with lyrical content, sure I would rather listen to Sylvian's intelligent lyrics then those of the Spice Girls, but the melody and tone are of more interest to me.
Horse for courses I guess.
I guess your conclusion wasn't that accurate in the end either eh, you see that what makes us all interesting, different views and perspectives, maybe you should think about that once in a while.
Funny how you use to be a session musician and I seem to be giving them more credit then you, of course that is dependent on how much direction was being given, but I find it hard to believe where musicians such as the above, Robert Fripp, David Bailey etc are concerned that there is an awful lot of direction.
You also talk about how a song can be played acoustically, which is true, but by the same token when Ghosts is played acoustically it is a totally different song to the one that was released.
Now I am not privy to who spent all the hours infront of the prophet5 creating the sounds that distinguished that song, but wouldn't that also deserve credit, as if it was Richard and not DS, how much direction could have been given there?
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Postby Sylvie on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:21 pm

baht habit wrote:And delving deeper, I would estimate that at least 80% of the songs he has released since Dead Bees On A Cake have been collaborative in some way. Just a question to ponder: Doesn't knowing that make it a little harder to conclude that this period would be the best part of his overall career, when the many other musicians deserve the bulk of the credit for the music that we are listening to?


i would say no, he has just chosen his partners very wisely. maybe he should even be in a band again, but clearly it seems like he would then have problems being faithful to just one group, so why not work with as many brilliant people as possible?
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Postby anortherncod on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:55 pm

Wouldn't want to veer off topic or anything... but I could have sworn Burnsjed's post on this matter was shorter when I was online at work, and now it's got longer! Am I going mad?!

Anyway, good to see that you mentioned Richard in the creation of the Japan 'sound' - especially for a band who sacked off their guitarist in favour of taking the synth direction.

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Postby Burnsjed on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:05 pm

It did kind of grow the longer the day went, I could add to it, but have decided against it!
I have always found the notion of who gets credited to writing the song as a bit of a grey area, especially when some of the people who are credited clearly could not have given an awful lot of guidance to the musicians.
I have also found it bizarre that the vocalist/lyricist always seems to get a credit.
Again it might be due to playing in a band for 10 years that I tend to give more credit to musicians, who can tell!

Btw, like a good wine, did the post improve with age!!! :D
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Postby anortherncod on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:18 pm

Yes, I would say it did improve with age!!! :lol:

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Postby baht habit on Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:25 pm

>>>I have also found it bizarre that the vocalist/lyricist always seems to get a credit.

After reading this statement, I have no choice but to stand firmly by my conclusion that you have a total disregard towards songwriters and the work they contribute. The vocalist doesn't always necessarily get credit because many vocalists in the pop world do not happen to write the songs they sing...many songs are written for them. i.e. Barbara Streisand, Rod Stewart, Tom Jones, etc. :-D
Yet when you question credit going to a lyricist, who obviously has contributed to the song by writing lyrics to a melody....I can only fathom that you just do not understand or wish to understand that this is a part of the song. Take for example, Elton John and Bernie Taupin...Mr John tinkers around on his grand piano and devises some chords that he finds worthy enough to develop. Mr John then composes melody lines to go along with those chords. Mr John then turns his ideas over to Mr Taupin...perhaps with a suggestion of what a lyrical scheme could be, perhaps with no suggestion. Mr Taupin works out lyrics that would do right for the melodies that Mr John came up with. When satisfaction with their efforts is reached, the process is completed, and a song is written...a pop song is composed. They can then take the piece to any musician they choose to work with and flesh out the song they have written but there is no doubt that those two were the catalyst. They could choose not to use other musicians, Mr John can sing it and accompany his melodies and Taupins words alone with the chords that he plays on the piano. This is only achievable because a song was written. The pop song exists---chords, melodies and lyrics.
Also take for example, Donald Fagen and Walter Becker of Steely Dan. Either one will come up with music, either one will come up with lyrics, either way it is a collaboration that both contribute to. Both deserve equal credit for the contributions they have made to a song...Now, the duo will then write an arrangement and bring in many musicians to try their hands at the same song. It is not out of the ordinary when they have brought in world class drummers such as Steve Gadd, Rick Marotta, Jeff Porcaro, Bernard Purdie, etc to see which drummer could cut the best track, lay down the strongest groove, even sometimes contribute the most original solo if the song necessitates such a thing. Bare in mind, the song is written and copyrighted by now. The song was written by Fagen and Becker. Yet various drummers, bassists, keyboardists, different saxophonists, guitarists may have all been brought in just to attempt a stab on one song during the song's recording process. Becker and Fagen decide which takes were the best. What the world class session musicians may happen to come up with for their parts (usually based on their individual experience, groove or chops) have a great amount of weight in regards to the RECORDING, but the SONG was already written by the duo. Steve Gadd contributed a ground breaking drum solo on AJA (I believe it was one amazing take of some awe inspiring draw dropping improvisation) but did not receive credit because the chords, lyrics, melodies, and in that particular case, the rhythmic vibe, were already previously written by Fagen and Becker and even charted out by the two songwriters. Gadd was there for the all important RECORDING process, but not for the even more important SONGWRITING process. If the song was never written then the awe-inspiring studio musicians would have never had the opportunity to record it.
In the case of Fripp. Let's focus on the Gone to Earth disc. Fripp plays on a good number of tracks. Yet he only gets a songwriting credit for the title cut, since he was present during the actual composing process of the song and the song is based on his own chords. Not so with something like Silver Moon, because the chords, melody and lyric were already written by Sylvian and Fripp was acting as a musician aiding in the recording process of that particular tune, which existed as piece of viable music before his involvement. He and the other musicians obviously helped to make the recording of the song so good due to their involvement but they had no hand in the writing process, so should not receive a song writing credit. They received credit for being the strong musicians they are and are appreciated for that....like many solid professional session musicians are.
Yet I fear I am only typing to get a more severe case of carpal tunnel syndrome. :D If one doesn't believe that a person who contributes lyrics to a song should get credit for their art, then I should not bother to debate them any longer, should I? Are either of our points of view valid? Anyone? Anyone? I fear I am starting to make enemies around these parts. Would folks prefer it if my opinions and observations were kept to myself?
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Postby Blood of a Poet on Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:25 am

baht habit wrote: I fear I am starting to make enemies around these parts. Would folks prefer it if my opinions and observations were kept to myself?


No... but how about if you kept your opinions to a paragraph or less.
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