Trauma Therapy may be necessary....

[becky]

I never got the impression from reading this that you were responsible for writing this Karnsculpture...not at all...
but never the less I agree that it was probably a bit cheeky (and wrong) to lift someone's comments from another forum without their consent and to copy and paste it in this forum (probably without their knowledge) as it means everyone here is free to pick over what they've written but it deprives that original author of a fair chance to respond...and that's not right...whoever did this was a bit naughty!

[karnsculpture]

I'm extremely angry that the post from the japan-pioneers list has been used here. any responses should be at japan-pioneers, not here.

I think that is a rather provincial view. Simonp simply shared it with us, since we are not all members of this list. Reviews, ideas, opinions are cross posted daily. She posted it just as I had shared info posted on Youtube and then subsequently a rebuttal sent to me personally.
I can't quite see the reason to be angry - in your case, extremely angry. I hope you are not angry that I don't agree with you.

I'm angry because the material was posted without the permission of the writer who unless they are a member of this forum will not be able to reply - particularly because on this thread their views are being picked apart and criticised, held up as an example of the supposed "divide" among fans. It's just not on. Cross posting of anything, when credited and with permission, is fine.

[Simonp]

I'm extremely angry that the post from the japan-pioneers list has been used here, firstly because it gives the impression that it was posted by me on the Nightporter site by me, and secondly because it appears to have been used without the original poster's consent, and whatever your views are on Manafon (which I agree with pretty much - its way to early to dismiss the album), any responses should be at japan-pioneers, not here.

For goodness sake Paul, get over yourself. Yes I should have made it clear that the post wasnt made by you but the fact remains I only posted it on here to show how Sylvian's new release is already splitting the camp. I meant no harm to the original poster of the comment. Don't be so bloody precious about it.

[Simonp]

I never got the impression from reading this that you were responsible for writing this Karnsculpture...not at all...
but never the less I agree that it was probably a bit cheeky (and wrong) to lift someone's comments from another forum without their consent and to copy and paste it in this forum (probably without their knowledge) as it means everyone here is free to pick over what they've written but it deprives that original author of a fair chance to respond...and that's not right...whoever did this was a bit naughty!

Whoever did this was a bit naughty??? Becky its fairly obvious it was me and I make no apologies for it. Can I ask everyone on this forum (and the Nightporter forum) who owns a bootleg of one of Sylvian's gigs? I'm pretty sure the majority of us do. So why don't we never question something like that which affects the artist far more than my quoting from another site.

[becky]

Gentlemen gentlemen! Please calm down!

[becky]

[quote="Simonp"][quote="becky"]

Whoever did this was a bit naughty??? Becky its fairly obvious it was me and I make no apologies for it.

I was only trying to lighten the tone Simonp, and was being jokey as it was all getting a bit full on! I didn't read back on the the thread who'd posted the original up, so I didn't even notice it was you. Please don't take such offense - as none was meant, I was just being playful. I realise that you originally posted this thing up with good intentions and meant no harm by it - to demonstrate that the divide of opinion is already happening pre-release.

[Simonp]

Sorry Becky I didnt meant to be stroppy with you. And yes you are right I only posted it to show what the fans are making of the new release. i didnt think it would be such a big deal.

Please accept my apologies.

[becky]

Apologies accepted! I think in a way it's great that everyone on here is so passionate in their views...even if the exchanges can get a bit heated at times - at least it makes it interesting!

[inkinthewell]

Agreed with comments above - it's strange when people get angry at an artist for producing an album that they personally don't like but I guess negativity towards the new album and longing to resurrect the early Sylvian wasn't unexpected. Sylvian's difficult in that it's very easy to make assumptions that he is too dark, too sleepy, too depressing, too samey - it's almost like a superficial cobweb that covers his work and you have to brush it off to really hear the truth (unfortunately there are some magical spiders who like sewing the web back together)

Personally, I think it's very inspiring to see an artist continually moving forwards rather than going round and round in circles (although neither is better, it is refreshing). It still feels to me like Sylvian is breaking new ground - not in the wider 'music industry' context (see baht's earlier comment) or as a world leader in his art form (although he could certainly be a candidate) but just as himself, on his own journey - like he never gives up challenging himself. I like working that way too and Sylvian is becoming more and more valuable a teacher to me and I think Manafon is such an incredibly perfect place for him to be right now.

Of course, I haven't heard the album yet, and only skimmed over the samples, but from the general hum of things I think it's going to be brilliant. I can't...judge it against his other albums...perhaps Blemish...because they are all so different. It's like each is a different world with different creatures, climates and vegetations...although some traits are shared - like Adrian wrote above, I can hear elements from past albums in Manafon, but that's subconsciously inevitable. From the samples, it seems connected to Blemish in some way...like they are in the same solar system...but Manafon is bigger and very very different.

But this is not saying I don't have a spark inside me that wishes to hear Sylvian sing something like Forbidden Colours again, just because however touching the recording is sometimes it feels like a ghost voice, and it would be so nice to hear something that pure and beautiful in the here and now...and to hear him smile like that again... But it doesn't matter. I don't want me or any other fan to have any impact on what Sylvian produces unless he wants us to. He's obviously, independently, endlessly creative...

What I do find strange is that I've spent so much time writing this post as I've never really got the 'adoring fan' thing before!! I guess I just want to show my appreciation in a way more profound than throwing money at the guy...however useful that may be...and to be in the 'in' camp for Manafon! Chet and Simonp your comments make me so excited - I can't wait to hear it! But then....you're right....I do genuinely feel quite 'scared' of Manafon - in a good way - it feels very ominous - so maybe the waiting is just as good!

I'm done now

If there was an oscar for the best post ever this would be a nominee.

And this applause is for Becky and Simonp, for having quickly and brightly settled that little discussion above.

[Hawk]

I am glad (for both of the above)

[Chet]

i'm so happy that David manage to create so extremely strong feelings within us all...
and we are all so sensitive, expecially in moments like this.

[neonico]

i'm so happy that David manage to create so extremely strong feelings within us all...
and we are all so sensitive, expecially in moments like this.

thats true chet....

[baht habit]

I'm extremely angry that the post from the japan-pioneers list has been used here. any responses should be at japan-pioneers, not here.

I think that is a rather provincial view. Simonp simply shared it with us, since we are not all members of this list. Reviews, ideas, opinions are cross posted daily. She posted it just as I had shared info posted on Youtube and then subsequently a rebuttal sent to me personally.
I can't quite see the reason to be angry - in your case, extremely angry. I hope you are not angry that I don't agree with you.

I'm angry because the material was posted without the permission of the writer who unless they are a member of this forum will not be able to reply - particularly because on this thread their views are being picked apart and criticised, held up as an example of the supposed "divide" among fans. It's just not on. Cross posting of anything, when credited and with permission, is fine.

Then I can only suggest that you refrain from this thread, because that is exactly the reasoning behind it - and I surely hope it continues and in greater abundance once Manafon is released.
What we see is already a trend...Fans getting worked up and spouting off about how Sylvian is past his prime. And they seem so sure of their own opinions that they believe that everyone else should somehow agree with this. Rather than admit that they either just don't get it or that perhaps it isn't a release for someone with their narrow musical sensibilities, they automatically assume that Sylvian has lost his talent. It must never dawn on them that perhaps they are far behind the curve - still clutching to music he made decades ago, and reacting as if he should be expected to repeat the same music over and over again. So I think it is appropriate that we share it amongst ourselves. This warped sense of logic should be exposed. Besides, I tend to think it makes for very entertaining reading.
I would never be so bold to think that every musician I enjoy listening to is always going to please me. I didn't quite get Paul Simon writing and recording that musical Songs from the Capeman, but I was never freaked out enough to declare that he was fading in skills. I just went with the flow and realized that I am not going to get every move made by one of my favorite singer/songwriters. Same with Sting's decision to record and release Songs from the Labyrinth. I was befuddled at first. I didn't particularly like the recording, but I respected his ability to do so and his nerve to put such an odd challenge to his mainstream audience.
Anyhow, I do hope this thread continues on the path I intended. I see no problem with it, and perhaps those that do only do so because they could be counted amongst those I am describing.

[baht habit]

From a review of Manafon on Amazon UK:

>>>Anyone can improvise music, anyone can play with out melody, anyone can claim to be an artist on the edge of new frontiers, I urge everyone.... (is this anyone theme annoying you by now! well if it is this album will annoy you more...worst album to date..)
I am a fan of previous work 1st concert I saw Japan(group) 1982 followed ever since...
Will <<<

Doctor Baht prescribes some much needed 'trauma therapy' for Will in his time of suffering.
Should we think about sending some medication to Mr Ian Penman as well - something to cure his nasty case of 'preconceptions'?

[baht habit]

Oh I've got to add this one - it fits all of the criteria:

>>>Komodo said:
I see Mr Sylvian has now fully morphed into the sinister Count Olaf,at 51 its about time you stopped the preening & posing, you need to practice what you preach, & ditch the conceited plink plink fizz of your self indulgent doleful film score style music and move to the next stage, & write something with real meaning & point.(Orpheus was the last one)The only people who buy your albums now are the desperate old japan fans who are still obsessed with your visage ,the ones who wet themselves at your concerts when you deem it fit to throw them a bone by playing one of your old japan records.Whilst i admire you as an artist its about time you snapped out of these neverending inward looking angst & solitude horseshit .You can surround yourself with accomplished & regarded musicians but you are only kidding yourself if you think you are celebrated by your intellectual peers turning out this shite.I feel i have to say this to you as i believe if someone else had said this to you 20 years ago you could now be a modern poet.Theres still time though, just let your hair down,ditch the uber cool/cold & embrace the banal/frivolous for a change, try it you may just like it and more to the point so may we.
i dont want to incurr the wrath of David Sylvian fans as i am one myself since the 1970’s believe it or not, its just that for the last 15-20 listening to his offerings i feel like ive been enthusiastically panning for gold only to find out all i have prospected is fools gold with a very occasional nugget.<<<

As I wrote above, all the criteria...
Komodo directs his remarks to Sylvian personally, which never fails to make me absolutely gleeful.
Komodo was a fan of Japan back in the 70s who thinks that Secrets of the Beehive was the last worthy release...hence, Komodo comes armed with loads of preconceptions.
Komodo thinks he has it all figured out and can exactly pinpoint the type of listener who would like Sylvian's recent work.
Komodo believes that since is not enjoying Sylvian's modern direction, then it must be 'shite'.
Komodo seems extremely angry, if not even slightly unhinged.

Komodo is undoubtedly in dire need of 'trauma therapy'.