Anyone else up for some in-depth discussion?

[baht habit]

Indeed, the instrumentation and orchestration are vastly important ingredients that Sylvian has learned to utilize to a high degree. Sometimes the musicians he chooses to use pretty much dictate the environment in which his chords, melodies and lyrics are surrounded. Obviously, musicians like Sakamoto, Fripp, Czukay, Nelson, Torn, Hassell, and Isham receive a lot of attention for their contributions to Sylvian's music. Yet in my opinion, session pro Phil Palmer remains the unheralded guitar hero for his inspired work on songs like Orpheus, Promise, When Poets Dreamed Of Angels (this one especially), Every Colour You Are, Red Earth, Ink In The Well. Unfortunately, he remains undeservedly unrecognized amongst the usual heavyweights that Sylvian normally works with.
an aside: I know Palmer had previously played with L Shankar and Frank Zappa...and later worked as rhythm guitarist in Dire Straits. Does anyone else know of other performers he worked with?

[kitaj]

I second the Phil Palmer praise.. he's incredible on those Sylvian albums.
he also played on Italian singer Claudio Baglioni's 'Oltre' album back in '91 I believe.. in fact Baglioni lifted half of DS's '80s collaborators for that album, if I recall correctly (I'm not terribly fond of his music).

back on-topic, I can't help being left fairly cold by the Nine Horses project as it currently stands. I think this time Sylvian was wrong in overtaking the project himself. judging from the recorded work, it feels to me as little more than a detour from the Blemish avenue-of-interest I suspect (and hope) he is going to pursue more systematically. the majority of songs on 'SBS', while always tasteful in their execution, feel a bit by-the-numbers to me. (I should maybe add I'd been expecting the 9h project as a kind of Rain Tree Crow's second coming.)

[Melaszka]

back on-topic, I can't help being left fairly cold by the Nine Horses project as it currently stands. I think this time Sylvian was wrong in overtaking the project himself. judging from the recorded work, it feels to me as little more than a detour from the Blemish avenue-of-interest I suspect (and hope) he is going to pursue more systematically. the majority of songs on 'SBS', while always tasteful in their execution, feel a bit by-the-numbers to me. (I should maybe add I'd been expecting the 9h project as a kind of Rain Tree Crow's second coming.)

I know what you mean. I loved it when it first came out, but it's a bit too instantly accessible and "tasteful", as you say, a little overproduced, and I still don't understand what the army of backing singers and guest instrumentalists added to the project - I think most of the songs would have worked just as well without about six different wind instruments and a vibraphone! Overegging the pudding.

I like the fact that he appears more politically engaged (more externally engaged, perhaps) than he's seemed since Japan - the anger at the bush administration that spills over into lyrics and music was a refreshing breath of fresh air. I do like SBS overall as an album.

But I can totally understand why he put it on the backburner for quite a while while he prioritised Blemish.

By the way, I know I post too much on this thread - it's not that I think my opinions are particularly inspiring or worth reading, but I love the topic of this thread and I wish more people would post here.

[MoodyB]

I personally really enjoy the accessibility of SBS...It contains much of the anger and despair of blemish, without it being quite such a rigorous listen.

I do however wish that David might consider working with Nigel Walker again, I often think that self-production can lead a musician down the wrong path.
Nigel has a wonderful knack of bringing out that certain organic yet ethereal nature in David's work.
The amount of compression used in SBS seems to follow the current penchant of engineers wanting to make a very loud, but sonically squashed recording.

Overall though, I do enjoy the album...From the aforementioned political commentary to the almost heartbreaking plaintiveness on the title track.

Just my tuppence worth of opinion...

[heartofdavid]

...but I love the topic of this thread and I wish more people would post here.

I like this topic too, I always check if it's been updated. I don't have much to say on it but I enjoy reading what other people think.

[VaporTrail]

OK, I picked up Blemish about a month ago, and I've really gotten into it. Sometimes I know you have to be in the mood of the album for it to click, but I've never been happier in my life, and yet this sad album has really, really grown on me. I really didn't know what to expect going in, but I do really like the bare qualities of it. I really like the "less is more" approach, and after a few listens the whole thing finally clicked for me.

Looking forward to hearing the remixes now...

[camphorvan]

The records I disliked most at the time are usually the ones I like most now. The Flux/Plight records I initially hated and then warmed to, (mutability being my favourite piece of music of all time - so relaxing and other wordly, yet very, very human). Blemish (subtitled 'What the f@ck?'!) is now something I occasionally go back to, when I need to. Rain Tree Crow - well, certain tracks maybe. Although I appreciate it, I've never really liked the instrumental tracks - Blackwater & Shoe Shine City I really like still.
Secrets - yes, but like a lot of Sylvian material, I've played it to death and bored stupid of it. I love the live arrangement for Waterfront on the E&N tour though.

As for the one that broke the mould for me; it will always be Brilliant Trees. It's vitality and exultant air, it's hope, is something that I keep coming back to. Not bad for an album over 20 years old!

I've used his records as signposts sometimes for my own amateur recording efforts. It has actually taken a long time to break free from trying to be a 3rd rate Sylvian and be a 1st rate me, though and am no longer writing material with the thought 'how would sylvian tackle this?'. I do what feels right and if it's a screaming guitar solo, it's a screaming guitar solo. I have definately taken a lot of inspiration from him though and how he arranges and layers sounds has certainly been of benefit in my own understanding. I love to just listen and locate the sounds etc....I have to fight the impulse to copy, because so much of what he does is so emotionally effective and downright impressive.

One thing is clear, he continues to offer very interesting, if not always accessible recordings that challenge and question the listener, Blemish being a prime example. Such a brave effort must be applauded even if the result is not to everyone's taste. That kind of courage is sometimes hard to find in music as it is in life. The ability to truly stand alone and damn the consequences.

A Devil's Advocate Moment.....
It irritates me, though, how some people seem to think that Sylvian is almost prophet-like. It's that icon/celeb-worship thing which is dangerous at the best of times. Seeing no fault ever with their chosen icon and that everything produced is gold is a worry. How many times do some people use highly pretentious language (often incorrectly), use phrases we know from past interviews etc. on forums like this? It's almost as if some people want to be him. On the other hand, though, forums like this offer the chance for people to express themselves, extend their use of language and communicate about music with words other than 'bangin'', 'tuuuunnnee' and 'innit bruv' etc. In other words, Sylvian fans are generally resourced with intelligence and eloquence and if not, aspire to be so. And that is never a bad thing. I might have hit upon something there....is Sylvian responsible for generating intelligent debate. One thing I have noticed here, is the ability to apologise if a statement is made that people find outrageous. Also, the politeness of the members and the desire to discuss, rather than shout opinion. *big warm fluffy hug*.

Anyhoo, I am not sure what the nature of my post is and what it's designed to express. Just thoughts. Funny how we have to qualify everything these days; everything is measured, tested and pigeon-holed. None of the above is about offering an argument of any kind and I might change my opinion tomorrow. Thoughts, opinions are moveable. As is my bottom. Which needs to get in the kitchen and make some food.

So, toodle pip my little baa lambs.


C x

[krausy]

I most certainly agree with you and your above post. I do believe we all take something from the man, no matter what it may be-----style of writing, arranging, way of life, or hair color-----but we do it out of honest admiration and respect. Perhaps the folk that may consider him a prophet feel that way because he has had the ability to "reach" them in a way that no other person, Holy man or woman or whatever, has been able to up to that point. I embroidered "Sylvian is God" on my jeans jacket as an affectionate gesture and to copy the now very famous "Clapton is God" scrawling on the wall. Believe me, I know who my God is, and I do realize that Mr. Sylvian is not perfect (yes, I have found this out in the last couple weeks that he definitely has his faults---refer to the dicussions on the "World Tour").

If I state my opinion it is not meant to sway everyone to my way of thinking---Lord knows, that could be a mistake---but I do try to bring up subjects that need to be "out there" for consideration. And by all means if someone can prove me wrong or correct me, I welcome it. I 'm not above learning, or admit when I am wrong and most of all, I have the ability to say I'm sorry and mean it.

Even though my grades did not always reflect it, I do love education. It is all around us if we draw it in and take notice of it. I know that all of us here can learn from each other and that is what is soooo amazing about forums and the internet. It connects us all to each other and in the few short years that the internet has been available, we have all come sooo far in our knowledge of each other.

Okay, now it is me who is rambling What does anyone else think?

[Lady Arcadia]

I liked your post camphorvan, and it did get me thinking.

I know some do view Mr Sylvian as a guru or higher power, and I can understand that viewpoint. I know his music has got me through many a rough patch, and some have kept me on an even keel (as the saying goes).

But, I think he has to take some of the rap for creating this image surrounding himself. The tour he did in 1995, he was very much the guru in appearance. Merchandising at the time also reflected this.

I can definitely say, I never wanted to be him. (Would be a bit difficult being female and all). But I do read some of the interviews and think " hmmm, that makes sense I could apply part of that to my life". And if it makes my life a little better, well yahh to me. From what I have read and watched over the years, he can show a human side that more musicians and celebrities should strive to attain. Just think what would happen if Paris Hilton took a leaf out of his book for a day?

As I mentioned in my introduction, I adopted his adopted surname, as he was someone personality wise, I am very similar too. The whole loner thing, or to be fair it is probably something that is brought upon ourselves by our own doing. I also have a stubborn streak that means I will do or say something no matter what the consquences, and man, there have been some consquences.

[kitaj]

..I love playing devil's advocate!

as much as Sylvian has been my musical (and otherwise) cornerstone for some 20 years now, I've always found him extremely one-dimensional as a singer. no one disputes the beauty of his basic timbre, or even how he nails it emotionally with the simplicity of his delivery on many tracks - but why on earth he isn't interested in stretching his voice as he is stretching his musicality, is beyond me and a source of continuous 'fan'-frustration over the years.
I don't know if anyone remembers him going falsetto on the instrumental bridge of 'The Shining of Things' on the last tour. as I then heard it, I first didn't know what hit me, then I realised it was him singing. or think about the last, high-sung verse of 'Pocket Full of Change' - so pray tell me isn't it a pity he doesn't do such things more often.
he also is a pretty bad vocal improviser - some impromptu(?) vocal stylings he does live make me cringe whenever I listen.
but he has improved in that department, over the years - I didn't really take notice of his singing until Rain Tree Crow - now those were fabulous vocal performances - and also on Dead Bees I've found his delivery unusually relaxed, open-sounding and emotionally engaging.

one other gripe I have is his using the music mainly as a kind of psychological diary for his own states of mind (notwithstanding the recent attempts of social commentary on the Nine Horses material). Blemish I've loved so much, but what happens when you're not in that state of mind anymore? same goes for Dead Bees. there's got to be more to music than just recording your psychology. this gripe of mine is very recent, because his '80s work, especially with hind-hearing, showed some kind of naivety (well, shamans have been young too..), hope, and emotional ambition (possibly making up for life inexperience at that point), whereas in that respect I find the Nine Horses material really mawkish in places.
I also sense that his being kind of guided by his own psychology (and placing utmost importance on it) makes him turn 'bossy', and do things like take over what were originally joint projects; mostly his judgements turn spot-on (Rain Tree Crow), but not always (Snow Borne Sorrow is a big, however tasty, disappointment to me, compared to its original premises).

lastly, we've probably all experienced the god-making of Sylvian on our own, and frankly it's almost inescapable, such is the quality and charisma of what he does and how he is. but I've always wondered how come his musical 'heirs', so to speak, always turn out, to quote camphorvan, 3rd rate Sylvians. it seems to me that the fascination with the man and his music doesn't allow the majority of his appreciators to grow on their own, emotionally and/or artistically (I've certainly long had problems with both). I mean - how do you kill your putative father/master, when he's so f-ing gorgeous? : )

[Melaszka]

..I love playing devil's advocate!

as much as Sylvian has been my musical (and otherwise) cornerstone for some 20 years now, I've always find him extremely one-dimensional as a singer. no one disputes the beauty of his basic timbre, or even how he nails it emotionally with the simplicity of his delivery on many tracks - but why on earth he isn't interested in stretching his voice as he is stretching his musicality, is beyond me and a source of continuous 'fan'-frustration over the years.
I don't know if anyone remembers him going falsetto on the instrumental bridge of 'The Shining of Things' on the last tour. as I then heard it, I first didn't know what hit me, then I realised it was him singing. or think about the last, high-sung verse of 'Pocket Full of Change' - so pray tell me isn't it a pity he doesn't do such things more often.
.

Yes, up to a point. Recently, I too have begun to find it a little unsatisfying that he is starting to sound exactly the same on everything. I also find his voice now a little too smooth and perfect (what worked on the original version of Ghosts was that his voice sounded raw, ugly and broken with pain, which is why the smooth, jazzy abomination that is the E&N version was a total misjudgment, in my opinion. Sometimes technical failings suit the message much better than technical skill.)

For ages I thought they'd brought in a guest vocalist on Pocket Full of Change! I've always thought, though, that rather than pushing forward with exploring the possibilities of his voice, what he's doing on that track is reverting to his natural voice - IMO he sounds more like his Adolescent Sex/Obscure Alternatives self on Pocket Full of Change thn on anything since Quiet Life.

This is a complete side issue, but has anyone noticed, for that matter, how much his speaking voice has changed over the years? He went from Beckenham barrow boy to mid-Atlantic, and now he's sounding more and more like Bamber Gascoigne with every passing day?

It sometimes strikes me as a little ironic that someone who preaches the gospel of being 100% emotionally honest and true to yourself in his music seems to have spent so much time studiously reinventing himself.

he also is a pretty bad vocal improviser - some impromptu(?) vocal stylings he does live make me cringe whenever I listen.

Sometimes when he does that he reminds me of Des O'Connor or Perry Como trying to jazz up Christmas carols! But I suppose the whole point of improvisation is that it's experimental and dangerous - if the possibility of it going awfuilly, embarrassingly wrong wasn't there, it wouldn't be so exciting and fortuitous when it did really work (which it does sometimes, even often). And I do like the way he takes old Japan stuff and makes it entirely unrecognisable live - there's something quite witty about the way he does it, even when it goes wrong.

one other gripe I have is his using the music mainly as a kind of psychological diary for his own states of mind (notwithstanding the recent attempts of social commentary on the Nine Horses material). Blemish I've loved so much, but what happens when you're not in that state of mind anymore? same goes for Dead Bees. there's got to be more to music than just recording your psychology. this gripe of mine is very recent, because his '80s work, especially with hind-hearing, showed some kind of naivety (well, shamans have been young too..), hope, and emotional ambition (possibly making up for life inexperience at that point), whereas in that respect I find the Nine Horses material really mawkish in places.
I also sense that his being kind of guided by his own psychology (and placing utmost importance on it) makes him turn 'bossy', and do things like take over what were originally joint projects; mostly his judgements turn spot-on (Rain Tree Crow), but not always (Snow Borne Sorrow is a big, however tasty, disappointment to me, compared to its original premises)

Again, I sort of agree, but also not.

I experienced a real epiphany when I was about 13 when I saw Sylvian singing Ghosts on Top of the Pops. The other girls in my house (I went to a sort of nightmare Hogwarts-type boarding school) were really impressed by how fashionably blank his expression was "Wow! He's so cool! He never smiles" sort of thing, but I looked at his face and I could somehow see that he wasn't just being chicly impassive, that he was really in trouble psychologically, and that he really meant the song, and for me it was so unlike anything I'd ever seen in the image-obsessed manufactured world of 80s pop, it was a total revelation. Although it was many years before I became a big Sylvian fan, from that moment on I really admired that emotional honesty that was always in is work.

And I do, still, admire the daring and honesty with which he can expose his innermost demons so unflinchingly, combined with the rare talent that can allow him to do this without sounding like a whingeing teenager.

However, I do get frustrated with his dismissals of his early work, which are often quite frankly insulting to his fans, implying that if they can like pre-Tin Drum Japan they can't have any taste, because the work was hollow and not emotionally true.

I've worked assessing other people's writing for more than 15 years and I know that how emotionally or psychologically honest an artistic work is rarely has any bearing on its aesthetic or artistic worth. I've read far too many honestly meant but cringeably bad stories and plays to believe this.

And I do like the fact that he seems to be moving in a more external direction with Nine Horses - it's still emotionally true (he really is that angry with George Bush!) but less self-obsessed (although I do wonder how accidental it is that his great outburst against American foreign policy, materialism and xenophobia coincided with his separation from his American wife!) .

I

lastly, we've probably all experienced the god-making of Sylvian on our own, and frankly it's almost inescapable, such is the quality and charisma of what he does and how he is. but I've always wondered how come his musical 'heirs', so to speak, always turn out, to quote camphorvan, 3rd rate Sylvians.

Whatever your opinion on the quality of Tear for Fears as a band, I often think Roland Orzabal is living proof that it's possible to worship Sylvian like a god but still produce your own sound.

I mean - how do you kill your putative father/master, when he's so f-ing gorgeous? : )

Complete off-topic rambling: am I the only person left on earth who doesn't fancy David Sylvian? I frequently feel half in love with the persona he projects through his lyrics and from an objective viewpoint I think he's very beautiful, but he doesn't. you know, leave me carnally excited. Does anyone else feel that way?

[baht habit]

Though I cannot help but be intrigued by his music and how he uses a relatively minimum vocal range to it's maximum capabilities, I must admit that I have been disappointed in Sylvian's decision to 'close mic' his voice and refrain from using the slightest bit of reverb on his vocals. Not that I am a big proponent of excessive reverb, I do prefer a subtle touch to add some density to a vocal rather than going completely dry, ...for example, the production on The First Day and the corresponding b-sides of that era.
Beginning with Dead Bees On A Cake, Sylvian's voice now seems to float above the music or seems to be placed far in front of the music (I guess the exact placement depends upon one's perception and how one listens to music). So rather than integrate fully with the musical accompaniment, Sylvian's voice seems almost "disembodied", if you will.

[VaporTrail]

Beginning with Dead Bees On A Cake, Sylvian's voice now seems to float above the music or seems to be placed far in front of the music (I guess the exact placement depends upon one's perception and how one listens to music). So rather than integrate fully with the musical accompaniment, Sylvian's voice seems almost "disembodied", if you will.

Well, when the same person who writes/sings the music does most of the producing, certain things they like tend to rise out above the rest of the music, and in this case it's David's voice. I'm still a n00b, but I'd imagine David handles most of the production work by himself right? That can cause the "sameness" that some of you are saying that hear recently with his latest works. Now, I don't hear it so much because I'm still a lost soul who's begun to see the light (thanks Kera!) but I'm interested to see what I think say a few months down the road when I've absorbed more of his music. Perhaps have someone join him in the production chair once in a while?

[Burnsjed]

This is my first post on here, and found this thread very interesting, looking back over his career, how one's feelings have changed/matured regarding his music. You can take it for granted that I loved the album when initially released unless noted!

Phase1:
Brilliant Trees: Seemed such a leap both musically and vocally from Tin Drum. Gone was the pop artist, and a more serious musician was taking his place.
To be honest, I very rarely listenn to this album in it's entirety, and only listen to "The Ink In The Well" and "Nostalgia" when listening to a compilation of his material. I still really love "Nostalgia" and it stands up really well 23 years later (can you believe that!)

An Index of Possibilities: This is the only instrumental album of Sylvian's I find myself going back to, and still listen to it today.

Gone To Earth: Another giant leap musically, and personally the most satisfying of all his albums for me. Still listen to most of it (find "Silver Moon" lacking depth, so usually skip that one) and "Before The Bullfight", "Wave" and "River Man" still in my favourite songs he has ever written. "Don't really listen to the instrumental pieces, but from what I remember of them, they hold up pretty well to.

Secrete Of The Beehive: Was the darkest album to date, and showed the direction his music was taking. No signs of a "Silver Moon" here! Still regularly play "Orpheus" and "When Poets Dreamed Of Angels", and there is something very comforting about "Let The Happiness In". "Orpheus" is arguably his strongest vocal, there is such a richness about his vocals in that track.

In Praise Of The Shaman's Tour: Personally my favourite tour, had been 7 years since I had seen him perform on the "Sons Of Pioneers Tour", and I even made a trip to Paris, which I was in the front row for, as I couldn't wait for the London performances, though I saw him twice at Hammersmith to.
The musicians on this tour were simply amazing, and it rates with a few other concerts as my favourite I have had the pleasure to experience.

Phase2:
Plight And Premonition: Didn't really care for this, should go back and listen to.

Flux and Mutability: as above!

Pop Song: Great song, still gets played now.

Ember Glance: Not even sure I have played it! Must have, though I bought that more as a 'investment'!

Rain Tree Crow: Don't get me started with this. I have very mixed emotions! Sadly, I think this shows the worse side of Sylvian, and I don't mean musically! He has even expressed it himself, that this venture should have run a lot longer, if only he hadn't felt the need to resort back to his Japan days and take control! Was a glimpse of what Japan could have been. "Every Colour You Are" and "Blackwater" still get regular plays, I absolutely love "Every Colour You Are".

Phase3:
The First Day: Really like Fripp's guitar work, and it was kind of refreshing seeing Sylvian let his hair down to speak. "Jean The Birdman" is still a favourite of mine.

The Road To Graceland Tour: Any opportunity to see Sylvian perform live is always welcomed. Enjoyed the energy of the concert, Sylvian, as always, was on great form, loved Fripp's guitar. Was saddened that Jansen wasn't there, but as with the album, there was still probably an element of fall out from RTC. Though maybe Steve just doesn't rock on drums? Though I find that hard to believe.

Redemption - Approaching Silence: See Plight and Premonition!

Slow Fire Tour: What an amazing concert, I had front row center tickets at the RFH, and was amazed how brave he was to under take this tour. There certainly wasn't anywhere to hide, and for a man who doesn't like the spotlight, still can't believe he under took this. Maybe performing with Fripp gave him a new sense of confidence?

Phase4:
Dead Bees On A Cake: It just does not sound like a Sylvian album. It seemed to me that he had been living in the States to long, and life there had influenced his music in a negative way. It's not that it's bad, it's just wrong! "I Surrender" would be better if it was shortened, there are just not enough changes musically for that song to go on for as long as it does. I still listen to "Wanderlust" and "Darkest Dreaming", but don't remember when I listened to any other.

Everything & Nothing: Well it is a compilation of his songs! No "Nostalgia", "Ink In The Well", "Before The Bullfight", "River Man", actually I will stop there, is was a kind of Best of, with out the best bits!

Everything & Nothing Tour: This is the only tour I missed! Had tickets for the concert in London, but moved to Chicago shortly before that, and didn't even know he was touring the U.S, given that leg of the tour was about 6 months later!, so no surprise to me that the U.S leg was a disaster.

Camphor: Hmmm, still don't quite understand the point of this, bought it though, how bloody stupid am I!

Phase5:
Blemish: When I initially bought this I liked half of the tracks and disliked (an emotion I have never experienced with Sylvian's music, even including DBOAC) the other half. I really liked "Blemish", "The Heart Knows Better", "Late Night Shopping", and the beautiful "A Fire In The Forest". Didn't initially warm to Mr. Bailey's guitar (unlike Fripp's and Bill Nelson's on GTE), though those tracks have grown on me since.

A Fire In The Forest Tour: I really wish I had seen this concert several months later, as the Bailey tracks on Blemish still hadn't grown on me, and I found the 1st half of the concert slightly unsatisfying (for those that didn't go, Sylvian started with the "Blemish" album, playing it in it's entirety in order).
The second half of the show was just beautiful, and was thrilled that he played "The Other Side Of Life".
Strangely, months later through playing bootleg CD's of this tour (I must have a recording of almost every single Sylvian concert!) the Blemish tracks really grew on me, and I think I prefer the live renditions to the studio to be honest.
I actually flew from Chicago to London just to see the concert, had 2nd row seats at the RFH (I actually book the tickets the second they are sold, which explains why I always get decent seats), as I missed out on the previous tour, wasn't going to do this time round!

Ashamedly, I haven't listened to the recent recordings, though I did order them all a few days ago, in my excitement over the news of his forth coming tour, though I am totally depressed after reading on here he won't be touring the U.S, and there is no way I can lie about the need to go back to the U.K again (like I did to the Mrs. on the AFITF tour) that by coincidence, coincides with a Sylvian tour, I am not very happy right now!

Aplogies for such a long first post!

[baht habit]

Apology not accepted
That was exactly the reaction in a post as I had initially hoped for when starting this thread. In my opinion, your first post is excellent in regards to attentive detail, my friend. Now I am looking forward to reading your opinion on the Nine Horses material. Please do post often.