Anyone else up for some in-depth discussion?

[baht habit]

I've noticed that this forum is growing and I'm interested in finding out how so many of you react when listening to the various musical phases that Sylvian has gone through since disbanding Japan. So below I've listed these phases as I usually frame them (some may categorize them differently and if so, please expand or contrast if you wish). I'd like to know which phase you find yourself gravitating towards most often, if there is any phase or phases that you particularly do not prefer, how you personally feel when listening to any recording from each phase. If you wish to single out any (or all) albums for comments, that would be even more interesting. And if you want to discuss certain musicians that Sylvian has worked with, their influence or what they brought to the music, that's great. Basically, I'd love to read some detailed thoughts and opinions. So feel free to wax poetic.

phase 1 :
BRILLIANT TREES / ALCHEMY - AN INDEX OF POSSIBILITIES / GONE TO EARTH / SECRETS OF THE BEEHIVE / IN PRAISE OF SHAMANS tour

phase 2 :
PLIGHT AND PREMONITION / FLUX + MUTABILITY / POP SONG / EMBER GLANCE - THE PERMANENCE OF MEMORY / RAIN TREE CROW

phase 3 :
THE FIRST DAY tour / THE FIRST DAY / THE ROAD TO GRACELAND tour / REDEMPTION - APPROACHING SILENCE / DAMAGE / SLOW FIRE - A PERSONAL RETROSPECTIVE tour

phase 4 :
DEAD BEES ON A CAKE / APPROACHING SILENCE / EVERYTHING AND NOTHING / EVERYTHING AND NOTHING tour / DAMAGE reissue / CAMPHOR

phase 5 :
BLEMISH / A FIRE IN THE FOREST tour / THE GOOD SON VS THE ONLY DAUGHTER / SNOW BORNE SORROW / MONEY FOR ALL / WHEN LOUD WEATHER BUFFETED NAOSHIMA

[Melaszka]

I've noticed that this forum is growing and I'm interested in finding out how so many of you react when listening to the various musical phases that Sylvian has gone through since disbanding Japan. So below I've listed these phases as I usually frame them (some may categorize them differently and if so, please expand or contrast if you wish). I'd like to know which phase you find yourself gravitating towards most often, if there is any phase or phases that you particularly do not prefer, how you personally feel when listening to any recording from each phase. If you wish to single out any (or all) albums for comments, that would be even more interesting. And if you want to discuss certain musicians that Sylvian has worked with, their influence or what they brought to the music, that's great. Basically, I'd love to read some detailed thoughts and opinions. So feel free to wax poetic.

phase 1 :
BRILLIANT TREES / ALCHEMY - AN INDEX OF POSSIBILITIES / GONE TO EARTH / SECRETS OF THE BEEHIVE / IN PRAISE OF SHAMANS tour

phase 2 :
PLIGHT AND PREMONITION / FLUX + MUTABILITY / POP SONG / EMBER GLANCE - THE PERMANENCE OF MEMORY / RAIN TREE CROW

phase 3 :
THE FIRST DAY tour / THE FIRST DAY / THE ROAD TO GRACELAND tour / REDEMPTION - APPROACHING SILENCE / DAMAGE / SLOW FIRE - A PERSONAL RETROSPECTIVE tour

phase 4 :
DEAD BEES ON A CAKE / EVERYTHING AND NOTHING / EVERYTHING AND NOTHING tour / CAMPHOR

phase 5 :
BLEMISH / A FIRE IN THE FOREST tour / SNOW BORNE SORROW / MONEY FOR ALL

Great idea for discussion! Tough to know where to start, though.

I'm ashamed to say that I still don't have all of Sylvian's back catalogue, and I'm very unfamiliar with Phase 2, so I can't comment on that at all, and I'm a very non-technical non-musician, so my comments are going to be very girly ones of the "Well, that was a pretty song!" variety.

I personally gravitate most towards Phase 1 and Phase 5 (although I'm not quite sure I'd put the phase boundaries where you put them - IMO, the Nine Horses stuff is very different in style and direction to Blemish, for example) - the phases where he seems to me to be most emotionally honest in his song-writing and moving forward, vocally, creatively, innovatively.

I also think that Phase 3 is frequently underrated, not least by Sylvian himself. Yes, he was very much swamped by Fripp in some of the material there, but it broke a long silence, there's some good stuff and Damage remains my favourite Sylvian song ever.

Phase 4 seems a bit constipated. DBOAC was such a long time coming and then it was over-indulgent and a bit beige in several places. Brave to start experimenting with mainstream styles and genres he'd never tackled before, but at times it does seem like a bad imitation of someone else's record collection. Now I think about it, in this phase he seems to be struggling to find his own musical identity.Everything else from that phase is just rehashing old stuff. I gather that was largely Virgin's fault, not his, and some of it is very valuable (I can't imagine a world without "Some Kind of Fool", for example), but some of it is just perverse (I think the E and N version of "Ghosts" is a crime against humanity).

Can I come back to this when i've had more time to think about it?

[baht habit]

Yes, please do return to this thread whenever you prefer. So far your response was excellent. I especially enjoyed your assessment of the Dead Bees period. You claimed that you might not be musically inclined enough in your observations, but that wasn't evident in your observations so far. I'm going for emotional rather than technical so feel free to share whatever responses you wish.

And you are more than correct that the Nine Horses material does not particularly fit in with that of blemish. But so far I've categorized this latest period in regards to Sylvian's independence from Virgin and the subsequent creation of Samadhi Sound. And though blemish and Snow Borne Sorrow are not musically akin, they were actually conceived around the same time, with some content of the lyrics overlapping in topic, so I tend to feel there is some slight relationship there.
It is sort of like my placing the Pop Song single or Rain Tree Crow amongst the second phase due to their improvisational beginnings, though musically they are far afield from Plight or Flux...or putting the Slow Fire tour in with the Fripp phase mainly because his pleasurable touring experiences with Fripp led to the desire and confidence necessary to tour as a completely solo act.

[untitled]

Wow…It’s funny seeing his work categorised like that. It shows very clearly how much phases 1 and 5 mean to me when compared to the stuff in the middle. You wanted emotional rather than technical? Here goes…

Brilliant Trees

This album was life changing for me. Had he not released it or cashed in on his Japan pop status to make something more mainstream – I may not be the person I am today. I listened to it non-stop during the school holidays in 1984. I know he didn’t invent electronica/ambient/jazz etc, but he might as well have done as far as I was concerned. It was a revelation. I listened to music in whole new way. I got in books, art, photography, and poetry…When school resumed late summer, I changed my focus from Science to Arts and have not regretted it once. My family still comment on what a radical change occurred in me, aged 16. I have David to thank for that.

Dead Bees on a Cake

I don’t know how to express it really…but somewhere in the late nineties – I lost track of what made me…ME! I was in a long term and very happy relationship (still am!) and somewhere along the line, I became WE. The parts of me that were different were toned down to make that fit with the other person, better. Which is stupid because 9 times out of 10, it’s the things that make you different, that people fall for. Maybe this is where David was when he made Dead Bees On A Cake. I listen to it very rarely…I can’t connect with it and find an unsatisfying listen. There is something missing….


Blemish

I could write an essay on why I love this album. I used the “Way Back When Machine” to go back and look at the comments on davidsylvian.net regarding it. Wow…some people were so angry about it. For me, it takes me right back to Brilliant Trees. Ok - David didn’t invent Drone, Glitch or Free Jazz… but again…it was a revelation! It rekindled my love of music and sent me out on a journey, whereby I found ME again.


David never seems comfortable with the thought of what his music means to people. So, if you see him - don’t tell him this - but I owe him a lot.

[Melaszka]

Yes, please do return to this thread whenever you prefer. So far your response was excellent. I especially enjoyed your assessment of the Dead Bees period. You claimed that you might not be musically inclined enough in your observations, but that wasn't evident in your observations so far. I'm going for emotional rather than technical so feel free to share whatever responses you wish.

Thank you!

Originally posted by untitled
David never seems comfortable with the thought of what his music means to people. So, if you see him - don’t tell him this - but I owe him a lot.

Me, too. Like you, I literally did find the way by the sound of his voice. I'd liked Japan a lot as a teenager (they'd never been my absolute favourite band, but they'd consistently been top of division two) and had loved Brilliant Trees, but lost track of David after that. Then in the mid-1990s a friend gave me SOTB and GTE at a time when I was in the depths of clinical depression and I honestly don't think I'd be alive today if he hadn't.

In defence of DBOAC, though: I loved it when I first bought it and some fo the tracks do still do it for me (Darkest Dreaming, Krishna Blue, Thalheim and, probably most controversially, Wanderlust - it may be a bit cheesy, but it comes from the same sort of jazzy place that some of Brilliant trees comes from). And it's not actually a bad album - it's perfectly listenable, but therein lies part of the problem - I can quite happily do my ironing to it. If I tried to do my ironing to SOTB or Blemish, I'd end up with burnt clothes - they demand all your concentration.

Having said that, I'm starting to find Snow Borne Sorrow a bit too easy to iron to, too. It's also the only other Sylvian album other than DBOAC that I liked on first listen. I do, do love it, but I find it a tad overproduced. Which, love it or hate it, you can't say about Blemish.

The angry comments about that on davidsylvian.net annoyed me too, particularly the people who claimed that David "owed his fans" more than this. He owes none of us anything, and even if I'd hated it, I'd still have felt he had the right to make any kind of music he damn well pleased!

Have to admit that Fire in the Forest is the only tour of David's I ever caught. People tell me that it was disappointing compared to his earlier tours - is that right? I have nothing but recordings to compare it to, but I loved it.

[heartofdavid]

Of all David's albums, I found "blemish" the most accessible lyrically. To me, he comes across as very human and real - angry, hurt, depressed, bitter, sarcastic - but being who he is, he ends it with a song of lingering love and enduring hope, very simple in nature with a melody like a lullaby. After all is said and done, after you go through more than you might think you can cope with, you find a way to go on. That's how it played to me or what I read into it. I first heard it after someone very dear to me passed away - I recalled the arguments and misunderstandings, and ended with remembering the love.

[heartofdavid]

Dead Bees on a CakeI listen to it very rarely…I can’t connect with it and find an unsatisfying listen. There is something missing.

I always felt this album had an unfinished feel to it; maybe because it took so long to record the songs seem so apart from each other (disjointed and emotionally bland). I don't think the songs are filler, but they seem rather flat and lifeless to me. If they were meant in any respect to represent a celebration of spiritual well being and happiness with family life, they come across almost anti in delivery.

I was very excited to hear it when it was first released - at last, new material! I felt rather "is that all?" after listening to it, and still do.

[baht habit]

My initial reaction to Dead Bees was similar to yours. From the beginning I felt that there were far too many songs included (some of which I feel should have been left deep in the vault) and the cd lacked the continuity and focus that had been prevalent in prior releases...as you wrote, it's a bit disjointed. And, as Melaszka aptly observed, the overall tone of the entire period seemed to be determined by Sylvian's desire to have all of this material available for release before severing his ties with Virgin. I had forgotten to include the other two releases from that time, the Approaching Silence compilation from 99 and the Damage re-issue from 2002, so I edited them in to better make Melaszka's point.

[Silver Moon]

Hello,

I like the way you categorized them, Baht Habit, but for me I think I would change them a little bit...

1) Bamboo Music, Brilliant Trees, Alchemy

2) Gone to Earth, Dreams Of Reason Produce Monsters

3) Plight & Premonition, Flux & Mutability, Pop Song, Secrets of the Beehive, Rain Tree Crow, Heartbeat

4) Damage, The First Day, Slow Fire Tour

5) Dead Bee's on a Cake, Everything and Nothing, Camphor

6) Blemish

7) Snow Borne Sorrow, Money For All

So It's not that different I Would sort of just put Blemish in it's own category... And I would put Gone to Earth and his collaboration with Mick Karn in a category too, I don't really know why but I would.

It depends on what mood I'm in to listen to the music. Dead Bee's On A Cake is something I like to listen to if I'm stressed out... It calms my nerves quite a bit and "Darkest Dreaming" is absolutely beautiful. I also listen to it if I'm in a good mood, too.

Lately I have been listening to a lot of Gone To Earth/Dreams of reason stuff too... I guess It's still just the mood I'm in right now... However, I do usually find that I have always gravitated more toward the Secrets of the Beehive/Rain Tree Crow phase.

I listen to phase 1 when I am up for something a little more upbeat. And if I'm REALLY in the mood I will listen to Blemish. I really have to be in the mood for that one, though, but when I am I always think it is just so beautiful.

To be honest... Snow Borne Sorrow kind of reminds me of summertime! How crazy is that? ... I Guess it is because I listened to it the most when I was driving around town and out and about in the warmth and sunshine. When I listen to it I remember those days.

And of course I listen to phase 4 when I just want to hear something that rocks!! I really love all phases... However, out of all of them phase 4 may be my least favorite... BUT I don't think any less of it anyway! Perhaps I will just have to wait a while before I get into it. It took me a long time to REALLY get into Dead Bees and Blemish... But I did!

I just love all of his music, really, and sometimes I'll pop in an album for no reason at all other than I just wanted to hear that one specifically at that time.

I like this topic

-K

[VaporTrail]

aww I'm such a n00b, I've only heard four of these albums...


Give me time though! hehehe I promise to catch up.

[baht habit]

VaporTrail, which discs have you heard? Feel absolutely free to give your impressions of them here.
you have a lot of interesting listening ahead of you

And SilverMoon, your descriptively personal opinion of Snow Borne Sorrow is pretty much what I am aiming for with this post. Though in the opinion of some, the product may have a wintry sheen to it in it's snowy presentation and icy musical tone, you have personalized the record to have a summery vibe because that is when it made it's greatest impact on you.

[VaporTrail]

I have Snow Borne Sorrow and Secrets of the Beehive, and thanks to a very special friend Rain Tree Crow and Damage. So far I'm liking all of them, I still have to really dive into SBS, but I've spun it a couple times and I agree with Silver Moon about the summertime feel of it.

[baht habit]

Which version of Damage is it that you have? Is it Fripp's original mix from 1994 which includes Darshan or is it Sylvian's remastered version from 2001 with Jean The Birdman? Believe me, it makes a whole world of difference.
Fripp's mix is fairly true to the actual sound of the band and greatly superior: powerful, aurally vast and expansive with the entire band mixed evenly and accurately...an honest document of the live experience.
Sylvian's mix is a disservice to the other musicians: all reverb is pretty much gated down to a sterile dryness, taking away a great deal of the evident power from the players, the guitars are pushed far into the background, poor Pat Mastellotto sounds as if he is performing in a garage on a beginner's drum kit , and he placed his voice way out front (or above, depending on how one hears music) of all other instruments. Basically, Sylvian neutered the performance. The only instrument which escaped relatively unscathed from Sylvian's remix is Trey Gunn's Chapman Stick.
Actually, if you really want to hear this lineup at their best in a live setting, I'd recommend seeking out a bootlegged copy of the Nakano Sun Plaza Hall in Tokyo gig from 10/26/93 (also released on video as Live In Japan).

[sexandpolitics]

It's strange to think that I've only been a fan for a year and a half, but ever since I discovered Japan and all the various projects the band led to, all of my old favorites naturally stepped down and it's hard listening to other music now without comparing to Japan/Sylvian, etc.

I bought Brilliant Trees, Gone To Earth, Secrets of The Beehive, and Alchemy all within a four month period starting from last year this time, thawing into summer and resonating into autumn. I'm an only child and my parents were getting divorced the whole time and so these albums became my mentor as I spent endless summer days driving around and strolling the beaches alone. These albums, after falling in love with Japan, offered a more sincere approach to emotion that I have never experienced before in music. David Sylvian has a real talent for stripping the ego down to reveal naked honesty in music. Some people attempt this but come off sounding sappy or phony. I also appreciated the array of instruments used on this album, seeming as all bands these days only consist of bass, drums, and guitar.

Ack, class is over, I have to run

[Melaszka]

These albums, after falling in love with Japan, offered a more sincere approach to emotion that I have never experienced before in music. David Sylvian has a real talent for stripping the ego down to reveal naked honesty in music. Some people attempt this but come off sounding sappy or phony.

I totally, totally agree. It's not just that Sylvian is honest about his emotions in his music (most adolescent poetry is naively and sweetly completely emotionally honest and 99.9 recurring % of it is still drivel) but in a way which (a) communicates to others (b) avoids cliche. It sounds like I'm just talking about the lyrics here, but I'm not - it's the way that the mood of the music totally matches the emotions he's singing about. I've often said that listening to Secrets of the Beehive is the nearest you can get to experiencing clinical depression without being clinically depressed. I just don't know how he does it, but he can just make you feel what he's feeling.