David vs the Pop Song ...

[ScottR]

I read an interview recently where David is hinting the idea of making a commercial record again. He referenced Ghosts and some other song, I think it was a Laurie Anderson record that were actually pop records that could stand up in an artistic sense. I think he got real lucky with Ghosts, timing is everything I guess. None the less I wonder if it is possible. I think Snow Borne came real close and with a little backing it could have made it over the top. World Citizen in my mind made it all the way and in Japan it probably actually did.

I think a good example of what I am talking about is the new Sufjan Stevens record Age of Adz. He really pushes the envelope in a way which is very experimental yet still accessible by the masses. Intertwined electronics, strings, horns, choirs and auto-tune ... yes auto-tune. It took a long time for it to settle on me but I have to admit its my favorite album of the year so far. My favorite track on the album is the finale, Impossible Soul, a full 25 minutes of glory. Anyway, the album is doing very well. It peaked at number 3 on the amazon charts. His tour is a virtual sell out. And guess what? there isn't a hit song on the album. I noticed amazon has a free track available if you are inclined to listen.

So it can be done. David has the talent, the friends, the knowledge and the name. But the question is, is will he? Does he have the guts to take it all the way?

[karnsculpture]

I think he has the talent and the guts to have a hit record, but he won't want to compromise. He has recorded songs in recent years that could have been hits ("For The Love of Life") but without mainstream exposure through TV, radio and the web it can't happen. The main problem there is that David has shown in the past that he's not prepared to go through the publicity treadmill the way the likes of Robbie Williams will (guest spots on prime time TV shows, interviews on chat shows and so on). Music videos won't work on their own now, unless they go viral for some reason (he'd probably need a big guest star like Lady Gaga and then do something awful with her). The only alternative is grass-roots support to build a song into a hit and I'm not sure if the fanbase is big enough to do that unless Sylvian releases something with wider appeal, which he probably won't choose to.

I don't see why he can't record potential "hits" and experimental music at the same time. Let one help fund the other.

[opiate]

Davids objectives do not lie in the commercial 'hit parade' area. Just because something is in the top 10 chart doesn't make it good music, it just means it been peddled well to the masses.

His chief aims is to make music to his interest, to his liking, in his way. If we all apply that to our working lives, and can sustain a living out of it, it is an extremely desirable place to be. DS has already proved that he can do hit music. He thought that was what was he wanted but when he got there, it clearly wasn't what he thought it was. So he took his time, re-evaluated, and created music fit for his purpose. DS clearly had (has?) all the potential to be a larger artist if he so chose it. Difficulties with how the music business world works can certainly create barriers to any artist that chooses control on creative license over marketing and sales pressure. It all depends on your objectives....and a good manager of course

It's not that he doesn't have the talent, as we know he does. It's nothing to do with having guts. He's savvy enough to ascertain that in order to keep doing what he wants to do, he has to sell his work to sustain this. He keeps himself financially bouyant with releases (ie Sleepwalkers -not to dispune this work as 'commercial' of course, just more accessible). DS knows where the boundaries are on where he wants to be and deliberately keeps himself in this niche. Looks like he would prefer to have critical acclaim for originality than green in his pocket using the hitsong formula (I could be wrong of course). I've seen no great attempt to market much beyond his established fan base.

That said, I see great potential in others having hits with DS contribution such as Tweaker. Some slick remixing work can very well turn a track into a monster hook. A sleeper hit is always a strong possibility with collaborating artists but would he welcome the major exposure in this way? He's a fickle wee b*gger and seems to change his mind a lot! Anyway, anything he puts his baritone to, is never a bad thing imho.

[inkinthewell]

I think the question is not 'has Dave the guts to do anything' (Manafon alone, like it or not, is enough to show he has guts), but, if David gets 'commercial' (especially in the way karnsculpture suggested, getting involved in anything with the likes of LadyGaga ), will WE have the guts to stand it?

It would be interesting, though, to figure out what a 'commercial record' is, and what sort of music can be tagged as 'pop records that could stand up in an artistic sense'.
I remember Laurie Anderson's O Superman getting to number 1, and that was a big surprise. I don't remember anybody liking it. I only 'got it' years later, when I started understanding the artistic value of music (whatever that means). Anyhow, however successful, I would never choose that song as an example of what a pop (or commercial) song is, and I can't imagine Laurie composing that song aiming at the top spot of the pop charts (whereas I can easily think of Robbie Williams sitting down with his musical mates planning another top 10 hit).
Getting back to Big Bad Dave, Orpheus has definitely all a song needs to be popular, and its artistic value is miles ahead of any hit single. The same can be said for Small Metal Gods. In my opinion, it's the most accessible song on Manafon (which doesn't mean it is easy), one that could have been a hit without upsetting artsy-fartsy critics (please don't think I'm speaking of anyone on this forum: I'm not). Yet it's the song that has received the least attention: it's not even hated by anyone!

[ScottR]

David usually doesn't make statements like that unless he has something in the works. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Contrary to what others believe I think it's harder to write good pop music than what he has been working on lately. Its also something that most people can relate too and have a reference point to start with. I can understand his reluctance to engage for this reason alone. The expectations are much higher in this arena. Maybe thats enough to scare him away from this course in the long run. Time will tell.

[missouriman]

[quote="ScottR"]David usually doesn't make statements like that unless he has something in the works. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Contrary to what others believe I think it's harder to write good pop music than what he has been working on lately. Its also something that most people can relate too and have a reference point to start with. I can understand his reluctance to engage for this reason alone. The expectations are much higher in this arena. Maybe thats enough to scare him away from this course in the long run. Time will tell.[/quoteLife in Tokyo" probably comes closest to a genuine pop song, but God forbid David does that again. It was a toss away ditty that none of them respected in the end. I think David is very capable of writing a touching ballad if he lets the Inspector Within sit out the session. I get the feeling he writes some very catchy cool songs only to sabotage them if they make toes tap.

[ScottR]

"Life in Tokyo" probably comes closest to a genuine pop song,

I would throw Red Guitar and maybe Taking the Veil in there too

[kitaj]

"Life in Tokyo" probably comes closest to a genuine pop song,

I would throw Red Guitar and maybe Taking the Veil in there too

I *LOVE* both songs - they're like an eternal flame for me - they have that kind of harmonious mystery that is always renewable.
it mystifies me why he dislikes them so much as not to bother with them..
ok, granted Veil is not much else than a wondrous groove and some wondrous ambience, and some wondrous guitar parts &tc &tc - not something that "works well just on an acoustic guitar", but.. it makes me FEEL ALIVE!

[afternoonfix]

Problem is , he never , ever gets any air time on Radio [I think I heard Quiet life and probably Ghosts on national
radio over a 10 year period here in Ireland] ,regardless if he wrote a pop classic .

d.

[opiate]

I think it's likely he'll do more melodic content than he has done in the last few years. I wouldn't go as far as to say pop though.

Pop is commonly known as throw away ditties but that doesn't always hold true. It's anything that has popular appeal and therefore commercially viable to a mass audience. Keep it simple, clear title and structure and easy to follow. For me, I consider pop is something you can dance to usually, while I belt out the chorus with glee while getting ready or in the pub, etc.

Hmm if we're getting into it, I would consider Swing a perfectly balanced pop song. I would also say GTP, Quiet Life, AOP and Visions have that upbeat seductive pop beat. Life in Tokyo/European Son got the disco Moroder treatment and designed to be floor fillers with catchy hooks. Intro-verse-pre chorus-chorus-verse-pre chorus-chorus-instrumental-pre chorus-chorus

I think Sylv would need to mix up his slow tempo with a hybrid infusion, mix of generations and genres. I think he still favours the emotional impact route rather than style over substance (thankfully). He did say that pop was for the younger generation only. I tend to disagree with that, seems like pigeon holing but I think he was referring this in context to those who mean to recreate pop success of their younger years. In todays fast world of internet savvy music buyers, it's a bigger, more discerning, audience and anything goes.

[missouriman]

opiate said "Hmm if we're getting into it, I would consider Swing a perfectly balanced pop song. I would also say GTP, Quiet Life, AOP and Visions have that upbeat seductive pop beat. Life in Tokyo/European Son got the disco Moroder treatment and designed to be floor fillers with catchy hooks. Intro-verse-pre chorus-chorus-verse-pre chorus-chorus-instrumental-pre chorus-chorus"

"Swing"? No way. Way too long and if that was on the radio even I would change the dial. It is well produced and one of the fan favorites, but it isn't a 'pop song'. It is BGM as Sylvian intended. The problem Japan's sound had was it was clean and exotic sounding, but it was inert and sterile. Like a photo of some foreign beauty that was never going to do anything but arouse a passing interest in the general public. They never played the hype game or did the kid tv shows either. "Ghosts" was a hit not because suddenly thousands of Brits got all introspective in 1982, but because it was different like "O Superman" (like DS says) and there was always room back then in the Top 30 for weird. Pop back in the 80s was a bird of many feathers. I really don't know what he would have to create to get into any chart now. I doubt he does either.

[karnsculpture]

"Swing"? No way. Way too long and if that was on the radio even I would change the dial. It is well produced and one of the fan favorites, but it isn't a 'pop song'. It is BGM as Sylvian intended. The problem Japan's sound had was it was clean and exotic sounding, but it was inert and sterile. Like a photo of some foreign beauty that was never going to do anything but arouse a passing interest in the general public. They never played the hype game or did the kid tv shows either. "Ghosts" was a hit not because suddenly thousands of Brits got all introspective in 1982, but because it was different like "O Superman" (like DS says) and there was always room back then in the Top 30 for weird. Pop back in the 80s was a bird of many feathers. I really don't know what he would have to create to get into any chart now. I doubt he does either.

Sorry, I have to disagree on two points, firstly that Japan were "inert and sterile". Really? I don't feel that way at all, Japan were for me just the opposite. They were often dynamic, exciting and vibrant - yet in quieter pieces could be thoughtful, introspective or contemplative. They expressed emotion and inspired emotion, not always positively but they did. Sylvian continued that with his solo work.

Japan definitely played the hype game and were quite happy to do so - browse the Nightporter site to see the examples of this. In particular they used the press, including slightly ficticious stories on occasion in the red-tops. Sylvian may not have liked it but they did it because at that time they were playing the music industry game.

To get into the charts now he's have to record a slightly odd but still pop song and then hammer the promotion. Its the only way. With "Ghosts" the timing was right because there had been a revolution in pop music where all kinds of sounds were played on the radio and people were receptive to them. It was a reaction against both mainstream "commercial" pop (e.g. Bucks Fizz) and also punk. Japan were very very cool and prominent in the media (especially print) so people bought "Ghosts" and some got hooked. The back catalogue of albums sold well because they were not seen as a kids act (Duran were to some extent).

[Haldeman Gracie]

David's efforts with Ingrid on "Little Girls With 99 Lives" failed miserably (IMHO) if it was an experiment in commercial songwriting. Neither catchy nor whimsical, they sounded contrived and constipated.

I don't agree, although certainly in the six song or four song configuration it's not a big enough artistic statement to have been succesful. Les Fleurs Du Mal had a fantastic hook and might have been a hit with some pruning / publicity, and Remembering Julia has a fantastic arrangement.

His work with Sakamoto is also very commercial and might have done better. Forbidden Colours obviously did well, but Heartbeat and World Citizen could have repeated that success with the right backing.

A friend of mine once asked me what music I liked and when I mentioned Sylvian his face lit up. ‘The Red Guitar guy?’ He said him and some mates had a night in getting high on god knows what and put on an 80’s compilation to highten the mood. Red Guitar was the first song played that none of them knew, nor had they heard of Sylvian. They supposedly came to a unanimous decision to play that one sole track on a loop for the rest of the night and vowed to look into this Sylvian fella at a later date. But I don’t think any of them did.

[Blemished]

I don't think David has anything to prove on the pop song front - he's had plenty of hits; and he's right to stress that "pop" is a young person's game...why would a 52-year old want to be aiming at a teen / twenty-something audience again? That would just be embarrassing.

I admire him for both avoiding the nostalgia-trips (80s reunion shows...live in Norwich!) and for letting himself grow up musically

That said it would be great if he did have a surprise hit...but I don't think it would came from deliberately aiming to achieve it. It's all about marketing at that level - radio coverage is one key element and they are unbelievably conservative these days. He doesn't do TV, so getting something by appearing on Later...with Jools Holland is out. I think the most likely avenue is via film. Look at the success of the cover version of Tears for Fears' "Mad World". I could imagine a ballad that was used in a successful film leading to a hit.

[Blemished]

PS On Scott's recommendation I had a listen to Sufjan Stevens - not my cup of tea at all - horrible voice, winsome music etc [Disclaimer: IMHO!!]. But it is very interesting that his music was used in 'Little Miss Sunshine' - that must have helped him hugely - just reiterates the power of film.