John Tilbury in The Wire - comments on Manafon

[Blemished]

I almost wish I hadn't started this thread now...eagerly typing up the Tilbury comments, wondering what to make of them...

At the beginning of all this, ScottR dismisses Scott Walker as pretentious and a source of bad influence:

"SW has got to be one of the most irritating artists. This is where Manafon got its beginnings."

I would strongly disagree with this - while I don't like all his work, Scott Walker is a genius ploughing an amazingly unconventional furrow. He has produced many, many startlingly beautiful tracks. I think DS would be flattered to be considered as someone similar and following a similar path. I can't see how anyone call him pretentious - what is he pretending to be that he is not? He is the real deal - a maverick - whether that is to one's taste or not is a different question.

As for Manafon getting its beginnings from Scott Walker, I don't think that makes sense at all (ignoring the implicit criticism). The origins of Manafon lie in the Polwechsel album with Fennesz, "Wrapped Islands". It is a totally different strand of music to Scott Walker's Jacques Brel-like career.

It is easy to misread things. It's hard to know what John Tilbury meant by asking whether that track was DS (and in that series, the Wire play people tracks that they are connected to in some way). I thought there was a hint of sniffiness in his tone towards Sylvian. That is what I was curious to hear people's views about.

[baht habit]

The origins of Manafon lie in the Polwechsel album with Fennesz, "Wrapped Islands".

I'd definitely agree with that, as four of the main participants heavily shaped the outcome of both projects. Plus, one could perhaps cite some of the AMM releases from the late 90s/early 00s -- especially 'Fine', where Rowe's tabletop creations function as a base and Tilbury contributes delicate piano much in the manner he did on Manafon.

It is easy to misread things. It's hard to know what John Tilbury meant by asking whether that track was DS (and in that series, the Wire play people tracks that they are connected to in some way). I thought there was a hint of sniffiness in his tone towards Sylvian. That is what I was curious to hear people's views about.

Yeah, I would not be sure if that is being misinterpreted either. Tilbury even asks if the saxophone is being performed by Tony Coe who, like Evan Parker, worked with the likes of experimentalists such as Derek Bailey. I wouldn't think that Tilbury would have been disparaging Coe, rather simply inquiring if that were him due to the tonal similarities. It may have been that the sound of Walker's voice struck Tilbury as being somewhat reminiscent of Sylvian, so the question was asked. But who knows for sure? Obviously, the fact that we are dealing with print means that certain aspects of the discussion are lost.

[ScottR]

Really ... the similarities between Walker and David are so obvious to me. I am sure that is the Wire selected this to play for JT for that reason.

[Adrian]

the only link between David and Scott is that I like both of them, and both in much the same way; I find it hard to listen to their older work, while I am eagerly awaiting new material; but I don't find them similar.
Of course there is a link between David and Scott through their rumoured get together to make an album, back in the day; but nothing came of that.
Also, I think (and reading the first post in this thread I'm almost certain I'm right; 'Check out the sax.') the track was played because of Evan Parker playing on it, as he does on Manafon - which Tilbury also contributed to, so that's the link in the track played (Evan and John, rather than David and Scott).

[baht habit]

Also, I think (and reading the first post in this thread I'm almost certain I'm right; 'Check out the sax.') the track was played because of Evan Parker playing on it, as he does on Manafon - which Tilbury also contributed to, so that's the link in the track played (Evan and John, rather than David and Scott).

Good point Adrian. And probably the strongest link between Tilbury and Parker is that they also recorded a duo project together, "Two Chapters And An Epilogue", which was released in 1999. Also, both musicians participated in performances as members of AMM.

[shoop]

Actually, I can see how Manafon got its beginnings from SW - both seem to be constructed from 'blocks of sound' as Scott referred to 'The Drift' - plus, said record came out in 2006... and I truly believe had to have had a splinter of influence at the very least on Manafon. David's method of working seemed to be something more collage-y and modern than Scott's 'once and done' recording method. Frankly, if Scott and David ever did finally work together, the world would crack in two. I could hardly imagine what would come out of it (Although I couldn't see Scott singing 'Ride' as he was meant to, to be honest).

I also think Scott Walker fans probably have a harder time than we do...a consistent off-kilter strings-laden balled approach for four solo albums and then..boom...off to the outer limits.

I'd have to respectfully disagree - even 'Til The Band Comes In's second side sort of ushers in the early 70's pap he wound up dishing out while still having a foot in the earlier records... the only jarring leap was from 'No Regrets' to 'Nite Flights'. I'd actually gotten 'Climate Of Hunter' and 'The Drift' before 'Tilt' and I was shocked how 'Tilt' bridged the two, even with their 22 yrs between them.

This might be my first post? I forget. If it is, hello everyone. I'm Brian. I'm worthless.

[inkinthewell]

Hello everyone. I'm Brian. I'm worthless.

Hello, Brian. After reading your post, it's quite hard to agree with your last statement.

[missouriman]

Actually, I can see how Manafon got its beginnings from SW - both seem to be constructed from 'blocks of sound' as Scott referred to 'The Drift' - plus, said record came out in 2006... and I truly believe had to have had a splinter of influence at the very least on Manafon. David's method of working seemed to be something more collage-y and modern than Scott's 'once and done' recording method. Frankly, if Scott and David ever did finally work together, the world would crack in two. I could hardly imagine what would come out of it (Although I couldn't see Scott singing 'Ride' as he was meant to, to be honest).

I also think Scott Walker fans probably have a harder time than we do...a consistent off-kilter strings-laden balled approach for four solo albums and then..boom...off to the outer limits.

I'd have to respectfully disagree - even 'Til The Band Comes In's second side sort of ushers in the early 70's pap he wound up dishing out while still having a foot in the earlier records... the only jarring leap was from 'No Regrets' to 'Nite Flights'. I'd actually gotten 'Climate Of Hunter' and 'The Drift' before 'Tilt' and I was shocked how 'Tilt' bridged the two, even with their 22 yrs between them.

This might be my first post? I forget. If it is, hello everyone. I'm Brian. I'm worthless.

Brian, pleasure to see a new name and to read your opinion.

[inkinthewell]

Wire: Check out the sax.

JT: He's just joining in, he doesn't rescue it.

There's something here that I don't get. There's a musician playing sax on a song (no matter if it's Evan Parker or Tony Coe, no matter if the song's by Scott Walker, David Sylvian or Barry Manilow, nor if John Tilbury, you or I like it or not), and his contribution is not considered very positive, because [my interpretation of JT's words] he follows suit. Is that so wrong?

[baht habit]

Actually, I can see how Manafon got its beginnings from SW - both seem to be constructed from 'blocks of sound' as Scott referred to 'The Drift' - plus, said record came out in 2006... and I truly believe had to have had a splinter of influence at the very least on Manafon. David's method of working seemed to be something more collage-y and modern than Scott's 'once and done' recording method.

This might be my first post? I forget. If it is, hello everyone. I'm Brian. I'm worthless.

Hello Brian. Welcome aboard. Judging from your post, your intellect is surely not worthless.

The first sessions for Manafon, which produced the foundations for 6 of the 9 tracks, actually took place in the late fall of 2004. So it most likely wasn't anything on this Drift cd from 2006 which influenced the material on Manafon.

[shoop]

Actually, I can see how Manafon got its beginnings from SW - both seem to be constructed from 'blocks of sound' as Scott referred to 'The Drift' - plus, said record came out in 2006... and I truly believe had to have had a splinter of influence at the very least on Manafon. David's method of working seemed to be something more collage-y and modern than Scott's 'once and done' recording method.

This might be my first post? I forget. If it is, hello everyone. I'm Brian. I'm worthless.

Hello Brian. Welcome aboard. Judging from your post, your intellect is surely not worthless.

The first sessions for Manafon, which produced the foundations for 6 of the 9 tracks, actually took place in the late fall of 2004. So it most likely wasn't anything on this Drift cd from 2006 which influenced the material on Manafon.

Aah, I'd forgotten about that. Looks like our boy was one step ahead of the master then, eh?

[kitaj]

I don't think it's anything to do with being a 'master' as opposed to a student or whatever. I think it's being receptive to the spirit of the times. many simple music fans also long for something new to happen in pop music, pine for a new freshness, to be swept off their feet.. it's more a case of 'great minds think alike', in my opinion.

[kitaj]

Wire: Check out the sax.

JT: He's just joining in, he doesn't rescue it.

There's something here that I don't get. There's a musician playing sax on a song (no matter if it's Evan Parker or Tony Coe, no matter if the song's by Scott Walker, David Sylvian or Barry Manilow, nor if John Tilbury, you or I like it or not), and his contribution is not considered very positive, because [my interpretation of JT's words] he follows suit. Is that so wrong?

yeah. that really puts me off checking out Tilbury's work I must say - I wouldn't want to live in a thin-air zone inmidst the air permanently - I want colours, smells, bodies to touch, earth to walk on with enjoyment of all things saintly and mundane. I loathe ideology in music. I think David's view of pop as the most tolerant, vital, and all-encompassing music genre still holds true, for him too I suspect.

[jon abbey]

Once Sylvian had added his contributions, would any of the EAI artists have viewed the unique sounds they created in their sessions for Sylvian as more commercial than their usual output??? I sure wish that Jon Abbey still felt it was productive to peruse this forum, for he is obviously the one person who could provide concrete insight.

I've only talked to a few of them about this project in general, but I'd say that it probably depends. obviously most of them tend to work in much longer form, so just playing for a few minutes is decidedly different from playing for 60 or 70. also, Tilbury's contributions were different from (most of?) the others in that he played by himself, as opposed to the groups playing together in Vienna and Tokyo and London.

[jon abbey]

Also, The Drift came out in 2006, but the somewhat similar Tilt came out in 1995, so it is possible Walker was influential on Manafon to some degree. I have no idea whether that was actually the case or not.

I do think the main influence was David's relationship with Fennesz, his hearing the Wrapped Islands project, and then his attendance of my AMPLIFY 2004 festival in Cologne, where he met many of the musicians involved for the first time (Rowe, Otomo, Sachiko, Toshi).