John Tilbury in The Wire - comments on Manafon

[Blemished]

This is from the Invisible Jukebox section in The Wire - the guest is asked to identify and comment on a selection of tracks they are played, not knowing what they are and who by...

John has just been played "Dealer" by Scott Walker from his 1984 album "Climate Of Hunter".

JT: This is the first thing you've played me today that I instantly dislike. I don't like the drum machine and can't hear the text. All that heavy incense in the background, and the singer is too expressionist for me - what a horrible sound! It makes me wince. It's not David Sylvian is it? [ ]

Wire: No, but it's not unconnected. Check out the sax.

JT: He's just joining in, he doesn't rescue it. Is it Tony Coe?

Wire: No, Evan Parker. How do you feel about improvisors taking on a 'paid gig' like this? Is there a danger of them being asked to elevate music - precisely 'just joining in' - that on its terms might be crummy?

JT: You must think carefully about something you've been asked to do. If the request came from Nick Griffin and the BNP [British National Party], of course you wouldn't do it. But if someone genuine and thoughtful is offering money you need, and you don't have any objections to their music, then why not? Improvisors have their rent to pay too. And the Sylvian album I played on, Manafon, was a very admirable project. Sylvian was very civil and paid us well; he recognises that free improvisors have unique talents that other musicians could not have brought to his record.

Wire: How do you feel about recording something and handing it over, without knowing how it would be edited together?

JT: But you do that every time you play.

Wire: But recording improvised music under normal circumstances, surely you expect it to be represented as faithfully as possible on disc?

JT: Well, I thought what Sylvian did with the material we handed him was fine. When I heard the record, what I played was recognisable and I wasn't unpleasantly surprised by anything he did. He repeated and looped a few things, but I remembered all the things I played. He put them together to make his own composition, and did it in good faith.

[baht habit]

Thank you. Even though it is highly unlikely, I still believe that I would enjoy hearing further collaborations between Sylvian and Tilbury.
For anyone else like me, who happens to greatly enjoy Tilbury's contributions to Manafon, I would suggest checking out AMM's latest release titled Sounding Music.

[ScottR]

JT: This is the first thing you've played me today that I instantly dislike.

Interesting... I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise. I actually agree with his initial thoughts. SW has got to be one of the most irritating artists. This is where Manafon got its beginnings.

Sylvian was very civil and paid us well

So I thought Manafon was payed for on a barter system. So much for that theory.

[darkerbird]

"So I thought Manafon was payed for on a barter system. So much for that theory. "
I seem to recall that in his last Wire interview, Sylvian said that some of the artists appearing on Manafon wanted and needed paying up front, and that others were happy to work with the barter system. He also mentions that it was quite clear from the sessions which artists he could work with again. A reference to Tilbury perhaps?

[baht habit]

JT: This is the first thing you've played me today that I instantly dislike.

Interesting... I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise.

Why even "wonder" about any such "response", if you already are so sure that you have "No doubt"?

I actually agree with his initial thoughts.

Did I happen to miss something? Were there subsequent thoughts expressed where Tilbury actually amended his opinion on that particular track which he claimed to have instantly disliked?

[ScottR]

JT: This is the first thing you've played me today that I instantly dislike.

Interesting... I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise.

Why even "wonder" about any such "response", if you already are so sure that you have "No doubt"?

I actually agree with his initial thoughts.

Did I happen to miss something? Were there subsequent thoughts expressed where Tilbury actually amended his opinion on that particular track which he claimed to have instantly disliked?

God Baht whats your fricken problem. Do you always have to be an a**hole?

[Haldeman Gracie]

God Baht whats your fricken problem. Do you always have to be an a**hole?

'fraid so.

Based on his comments on the Exit / Delete thread (where he 'spoon feeds' me a link without noticing that it had been non existent when I posted - I'm sure he'll now point to the icon), or the lyric threads where he argues the point (why?) with his blanket disclaimer that he's not fit for the task (as if we were in any doubt)... and yet he finds the inclination to deconstruct your post word for word to try and find some evidence for contradiction, deciding against all usage that 'no doubt' is suddely utterly literal.... retarded and tiresome.

[Adrian]

also check out Tilbury's 2cd with Keith Rowe, Duos for Doris' on the Erstwhile label.

[baht habit]

Interesting... I wonder what his response would have been had he been told that it was ScottW. No doubt it would have been nothing but praise.

Why even "wonder" about any such "response", if you already are so sure that you have "No doubt"?

I actually agree with his initial thoughts.

Did I happen to miss something? Were there subsequent thoughts expressed where Tilbury actually amended his opinion on that particular track which he claimed to have instantly disliked?

God Baht whats your fricken problem. Do you always have to be an a**hole?

As always, go ahead and revert to obscenity rather than addressing a legitimate inquiry which challenges any of your intentional nonsense. My "fricken problem" continues to remain consistent : the manner in which you are so very adamant in this irrational determination to attack anything and everything about Manafon and disrespect anyone who happened to have contributed to Manafon...and now even as you feel the necessity and freedom to go ahead and dismiss someone as fake based on some contrived notion and an ill-informed assumption.
I believe all of us here clearly get it by now that you are so very negative towards Sylvian for having any interest in the EAI genre. And I cannot help but respect that you personally do not enjoy the music that these artists happen to create, for not every style of music is made to appeal to every single music listener.
Yet doesn't it seem to be going a bit too far with this unreasonable derision when you have to resort to creating a rhetorical scenario and then convincing yourself that you can accurately predict exactly how someone thinks? It's evident that you have remained hellbent on stereotyping these musicians as fraudulent and labeling anyone who enjoys their work as pretentious --- I have never seen such charges of pretense, either tacitly or explicitly, thrown around this forum as much as during the period since you've joined. And it still baffles me how some feel so confident of their personal perception to the degree that they can accuse another of pretension when they surely know very little or nothing at all about those they happen to be accusing.
And so in this instance, I felt compelled to challenge you yet again when I read how you attempted to carry out yet another 'drive-by shooting' of a post - this time on Mr Tilbury, who is actually quite an intriguingly multi-faceted and outspoken individual with very unique views on not only music but politics and certain norms of society, a well-trained pianist who has proven in the past that he can deftly handle a numerous amount of musical styles, and a man who also suffered through an unfortunate stroke last year yet continues on performing with admirable determination...but perhaps you wouldn't have the interest nor inclination to learn of any of that. You'd prefer to malign and pigeonhole a person based on the sole fact that you don't like the content of Manafon....and you apparently prefer never to be challenged.

[ScottR]

wow baht ... dickheadus-assholitis can actually be cured. you should find a good therapist and get this fixed.

it would actually be better if you did call me names rather than subject me to endless psychotic rants. one thing is for sure, i never come down on people for their opinions the way you do. it would almost be funny if it weren't directed at me so much. you should step back and see it for what it is.

[Simonp]

Calm down Scott. If Baht offends you that much can I suggest you just ignore him? The name calling is completely unnecessary and I'm sure the rest of the forum members don't want to read these kind of posts

[missouriman]

If a post annoys you or more specifically an individual poster then make them a Foe and you will not see their comments again. Silver Moon is very considerate that way for allowing the option.

[opiate]

I agree with ScottR, Baht consistently looks for every excuse to provoke with antagonistic hostility whenever he posts anything. I couldn't be bothered reading the diatribe of crap that followed, all I saw was blah, blah, whine, blah, blah. Predictable as ever.

ScottR, you gave me the biggest laugh of today, thanks Summed him up perfectly.

Baht, you're on my foe list so don't waste your word count by exasperating the debate further as "I can't hear you" This forum needs a Troll like you like it needs a hole in the head.

[Blemished]

Ooh, so much hostility! Take it easy fellas...

I did find Mr Tilbury's initial comment very funny...made me wonder if he's that keen on our Dave's music. I do wonder if he views Manafon as a relatively mainstream record, which arguably it is.

I also think Scott Walker fans probably have a harder time than we do...a consistent off-kilter strings-laden balled approach for four solo albums and then..boom...off to the outer limits.

I find DS's trajectory far more consistent. Japan were always drifting to sonic experimentalism...Brilliant Trees was brilliant for its amazing second half etc...For me, Manafon makes complete sense in this context. It is things like Nine Horses or some of the more MOR balladry that I find off-trajectory. I'm sure others disagree, but each to their own.

[kitaj]

I stand up for Baht.
his posts are among the most valuable in this forum.
I'm aware that his approach to language can come across as unintentionally* hilarious* at times because of its overwroughtness*, but that's no reason to put him down. he's taking great care to articulate* what he thinks is right and especially explain (thoroughly) his reasons. I think the purpose of a 'forum' is this. no?

(the words marked with * signalise that I'm being a pompous a-hole according to the post-everything all-ironical Bitter Brigade.)

as for the Manafon-yes, Manafon-no feud -
I'm a longtime Sylvian fan. I noticed that in the beginning we were all much the same. there was no need for internal divisions. now some decades have passed, there remain two camps: the ones passionate about the music, the other ones passionate about their own past. the first camp see no contradiction between the same artist's music from 20 years ago and that of now. music is flux, as life is. and that is good, and it feels good.

re: Tilbury -
I didn't like his comment in The Wire. I think he's being too ideological about it, too entrenched in his chosen area of musical activity. because of this fundamental lack of connection, I too doubt we'll be seeing him on further DS projects.