Trauma Therapy may be necessary....

[baht habit]

I don't know if many of you are bothering with such trivial meanderings but I am beginning to notice a slight polarization emerging from Manafon.
Here is just one example, which actually occured on the comment section of youtube of all places - on the posting of the video for Small Metal Gods, a comment was made:

>>>What happened to the melodic genius of Orpheus, September and the Devil's own?
Self indulgence is all very well, but in this commercial game Sylvian still uses to pay the rent, I expect more.
Primal screams from Blemish should be buried. If you define yourself as new and original, don't become a cliche of yourself.
Where did our 3 minute hero go?<<<

To which I innocently replied:

'3 minute hero'?
He's obviously moved on to a mindset that has lost you. How unfortunate.

I then received an e-mail from the original poster:

>>>I'm name checking a U.K Ska band with the three minute hero quote. Essentially all pop musicians, of which Sylvian is one, are purveyors of this type of thing, in this type of medium. Just because Sylvian no longer uses a verse, bridge and chorus doesn't mean he isn't still a pop star. I know he'd like to be a South Bank poet, and has a disdain for the "industry", so why is he still in it?
Trouble is he he hasn't "moved on". This is the same subject matter used in Blemish, but a more minimalist instrumentation. Why doesn't he revert back to a couple of years ago, and use first class session musicians, playing their instruments beautifully, and write about new things he's experiencing?
Yep, he's lost me, the journey's over for me. He's becoming a one trick pony.
I don't think I'll be the only one telling the Emperor that I can't see his new clothes. <<<

After reading that, I decided not to continue any discussion with this fan. I suppose I could empathize with this person, but I don't quite think that he or she ever really got the gist of Sylvian's musical intentions in the first place.
Anyways, I have noticed a bit of grumbling already - and the cd hasn't even been officially released. By the middle of next month, there very well could be an interesting outpouring of emotional grief. Not that I would be enjoying it or anything...

[sisterlondon]

Well, no trauma here, but I have to say I also agree with this person you mention. I'm buying Manafon, but I know I will like/listen to it a lot less that Nine Horses, for example. We all have different tastes and that has to also be respected.

And no therapy because I musician I like releases an album I don't Let therapy for more important things in life

[becky]

Yes, it's sure gonna be interesting! I like what I've heard so far...I do sometimes miss the rich textural beauty of his previous music but considering Manafon was born out of living in virtually complete solitude - this album does make sense to me from an artistic point of view. Snow White in Appalachia is starkly beautiful vocally, but I can't help feeling a bit sad for him on a personal level, as the lyrics on the album suggest he still seems to be in a place of internal pain from the aftermath of his trauma.

[baht habit]

I understand that other opinions and tastes should always be respected. Yet when a person gives such inaccurate reasons for having a certain opinion, then I find it difficult to seriously grasp where they are coming from. In this case, as I wrote above, I can't help but think that this fan was never truly in touch with Sylvian's aspirations and inspirations throughout his solo career. Perhaps this person still holds Japan as Sylvian's ideal period, and that may be the only way that I can comprehend their reasoning. Perhaps this person only heard what he or she wanted to hear and ignored the much more experimental aspects of Sylvian's output.
Allow me to break it down better:

>>>three minute hero. Essentially all pop musicians, of which Sylvian is one, are purveyors of this type of thing, in this type of medium. Just because Sylvian no longer uses a verse, bridge and chorus doesn't mean he isn't still a pop star.<<<

I think that we can all agree that Sylvian has spent the last quarter century separating himself from any possibility of being described as a 'pop star' - certainly any claim that he was actually ever a 'three minute hero' seems to be extremely stretching it.

>>>I know he'd like to be a South Bank poet, and has a disdain for the "industry", so why is he still in it?<<<

Doesn't this writer come across as personally scorned and angry at Sylvian for attempting to expand his musical horizons and escape from the commercial music industry? We can easily surmise that Sylvian started Samadhi Sound for the express purpose of escaping the confines of the record label biz.

>>>Trouble is he hasn't "moved on". This is the same subject matter used in Blemish, but a more minimalist instrumentation.<<<

This is so inaccurate that I can only guess that this person hasn't heard the entire record and is making their opinion strictly on his or her own preconceptions. We know that Blemish was chock full of metaphors for his dissolving marriage - backed by musical ideas based on electronic glitch and drone styles.
Small Metal Gods focuses on putting aside gurus and spiritual journeys / The Rabbit Skinner, as best my metaphorically challenged brain can tell, is about a man with no redeeming qualities / Random Acts Of Senseless Violence deals with terrorism cells and the loss of civil liberties due to a nation's paranoia / The Greatest Living Englishman seems to be about a melancholy writer who appeals to no one since he writes solely about himself / Snow White In Appalachia focuses on a girl who struggles with addiction to Cocaine - I believe the snowstorm and a car crash are metaphors, I could be misinterpreting it / Emily Dickinson seems to be a continuation of the previous track's topic - a girl is 'no longer a user' and becomes ostracized by her former aquaintances... most of this track is instrumental as it is mainly a spotlight for saxophonist Evan Parker's skill, which is followed by more instrumental experimentation on The Department Of Dead Letters / Manafon is about the misanthropic poet RS Thomas - with a little bit of commentary by Sylvian at the conclusion...."don't know his right foot from his left".
So as you can tell, the subject matter varies considerably. And when we all hear the entire release, I believe plenty of us will agree that it's not at all as sparse or as bare as is being claimed. I keep hearing more and more interesting subtleties with continued listening. It definitely is not 'more minimalist' than Blemish.

>>>Why doesn't he revert back to a couple of years ago, and use first class session musicians, playing their instruments beautifully, and write about new things he's experiencing?<<<

I wouldn't consider many of the amazing musicians that Sylvian has chosen to utilize and collaborate with over the many years to be 'session musicians'. I am in no way knocking session players (for I am one myself). But a large majority of these players that Sylvian has worked with have had self-sufficient careers of their own where they are using their creative skills to astounding effect rather than just taking musical direction or reading written charts of music - which is usually the norm when one is dealing with session musicians.
And I will easily claim that these musicians in the field of electro-acoustic improvisation seem to be not only an inspired option for Sylvian but actually an obvious decision that makes sense when you really take a look at the careers of the unique artists Sylvian has worked with in the past.
As for playing instruments beautifully, I contend that on Manafon, all the beauty one will need to hear is provided by John Tilbury's piano playing.

>>>Yep, he's lost me, the journey's over for me. He's becoming a one trick pony.<<<

To claim that Sylvian is a 'one trick pony' is quite laughable. The man has experimented and incorporated musical styles which give proof to his boldness and ability to always look forward. After lamenting that Sylvian will not 'revert back to a few years ago' (obviously this person prefers the sound of Dead Bees or Snow Borne Sorrow, and would like Sylvian to repeat himself or limit himself to a career of creative stasis), Sylvian is unfairly and most inaccurately accused of 'becoming a one trick pony'. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

>>>I don't think I'll be the only one telling the Emperor that I can't see his new clothes.<<<

I actually agree completely with this statement. But it says much more about the listeners who may be making such a statement rather than the artist who is following a creative path of his own choosing.

[Blemished]

I don't understand people getting ANGRY at DS's musical directions.

He's never really followed the same path from album to album. In my case, I could live without nine horses or much of DBOAC, which seem a lapse into MOR territory to me, but that's just me - I can't see how disappointment about a direction could make one angry. Even the things that are not personal favourites still have something to offer. It amazes me that there seem to be so many people who want him to re-create SOTB umpteen times.

This talented guy has been making wonderful music for over 30 years, continuously evolving and frequently, perhaps even increasingly, challenging us...that is surely one of the joys of the journey we are taking with him.

[Adrian]

Judging from David's own comments on Manafon, he's finally arrived where he's wanted to be.
Collaborations in the past were always a way to step beyond and outside his own (imho considerable) talent. In fact, one of his biggest talents is getting the right people together.
Besides that, throughout his career he has made the occasional foray into more difficult songs; apart from the lush songs there have always been the more spartan (and interesting) tracks.
When I first heard Camphor I wondered what that would sound like with vocals - the answer was Blemish. And then when I heard Naoshima I wondered the same thing, and the answer I think is Manafon.
It's been a long journey, which I personally have loved to take with him - at the end of the day I do see a line from bits of Alchemy, Gone to Earth, Rain Tree Crow, The First Day through to Blemish and Manafon; to say nothing of his instrumental releases.
Peace, Adrian

[Simonp]

The subject matter on Manafon is competely different from what Sylvian wrote about on Blemish. From what I can make out there is practically no references to the dissolution of his marriage to Ingrid on Manafon.

For the record, I hated Blemish. I have had a copy of Manafon for a couple of days now and I can't stop listening to it. I listen to it in the car on the way to work, i listen to it at work then I listen to it when i get home. It's an incredible record. I've never heard anything like it before. It's unique. Give it a chance people. Buy it, listen to it through headphones to appreciate all the sounds and nuances. Then decide whether you still want sylvian to write another SOTB. I know I don't.

[Simonp]

Can i also add, Manfon is incredibly melodic. I think that's what surprised me about it. There's very little of the discordant Bailey sounding tracks on here.

[inkinthewell]

>>>Sylvian's a one trick pony.<<<

In the end, we should all agree with that statement: no matter if we personally do or don't like one or two of his songs or albums, if we prefer one period of his career to another, if it took us just one listen or 73 before we got to understand where he was going, throughout these 30 years he has only done one thing: he's been absolutely FANTASTIC!

This reminds me of the words used to launch Manafon: "bold, uncompromising work". When the heck has he produced a "faint-hearted, compromising work"? Probably sometimes he hasn't gone as far as he would have liked to go, but the guy's always shown great boldness.

Someone posted something about his or her companion accusing him/her of liking Sylvian so much that if he should record a fart-album he/she would find it great because it's by David Sylvian. Which is probably true for most of us. But the point is that David Sylvian would never make a fart-album: he has never wanted to shock us, he doesn't care about doing "that one thing you would never expect from him", from 'Ghosts' onwards he has taken a beautiful, honest, not at all easy, creative direction. Now, from the bleak snowy landscape of Blemish, he's moving on into the dark woods of Manafon. And I'm longing to go in there.
If you go down to the woods today be sure of a big surprise...

[Chet]

great comment Baht
the only time David has dissappointed me was when SBS came out.
every time, until then and after that, he has managed to surprise me in his choice of musicians and in his way of arranging and producing his material. SBS was just a way of trying to sound like he once did, and it just didn't turn out well, cause each song was done in a way he has made music before, and way better before, (that's my opinion) it's the same with some tracks on Dead Bees.
Blemish was a chock, so now with Manafon, we are prepared for what could strike us, and the songs he deliver are just so beautiful and harmonic and sweet, and presented in a way we could just never had dreamed of. this is a unique album, a revelation, stuff that has never ever been made before, i guess modern music can't be better.
when did we hear music that scared us this much because of the unknown? I can't remember feeling like thisever before. and I don't think Sgt Pepper at the time was as peculiar as Manafon is today. maybe hearing an original piece by Stavinsky the first time it was beeing performed in the 20s made people blown away.
I thought I would miss the minimalistic beauty of Ryuichi, but no. I adore the surprises John Tilbury give us. and I thought I would miss the trippin' tappin' of Steve, but no. it's not necessary on Manafon.
this is a masterpiece
this is a masterpiece

[baht habit]

Simonp made us aware of this on another thread and I believe it belongs here as well. I was hoping this post would be the ongoing thread where we can focus on those certain fans who cannot seem to realize that what is past is past and that Sylvian is an artist who sets his sights on breaking boundaries while challenging himself and his listeners.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting post on nighporter group -

>>>Sylvian's latest, Manafon, confirms what I suspect many of us have believed for a while: Sylvian is a spent force. He hasn't made a decent album since 1987 and that was a looooong time ago. I know that David has been exploring other avenues in his music since then but his latest avenue is a dead end. Even the much-lauded Nine Horses album, for me, demonstrates a key problem with Sylvian's music in the last two decades: his sense of melody has deserted him completely.

His vocal melodies are now very simplistic and incredibly 'samey'. The problem with his improvisational style is that, well, it actually sounds like he's making it up as he goes along. What happened to the craft of his best songs? He seems unwilling to craft a song now prefering the 'honesty' of an improvised approach. I had been hoping that Blemish was a blemish but he's now followed it with a companion piece, SIX years later. I thought David liked to 'move on' these days?

It's a terrible waste of an incredible talent. Listening to his most beautiful music - Brilliant Trees, Forbidden Colours, Weathered Wall, Before the Bullfight, When Love Walks In, Wave, Orpheus, Ride, Let the Happiness In - is enough to make you weep now, weep over what has been lost.

Thanks for the memories David but it looks like, that's it. <<<
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If I may point out, many fans' sense of 'beauty' has turned out to be very limited in scope and that is extremely surprising to me.

>>He hasn't made a decent album since 1987<<
>> weep now, weep over what has been lost. <<

It's obviously that Sylvian 'lost' this person long ago. Why would such types with seemingly narrowminded views still bother to pay attention to his present work when all they want to do is compare and contrast it with music from the 80s? Why put themselves through this? Trauma Therapy may be in order here...

[Hawk]

Agreed with comments above - it's strange when people get angry at an artist for producing an album that they personally don't like but I guess negativity towards the new album and longing to resurrect the early Sylvian wasn't unexpected. Sylvian's difficult in that it's very easy to make assumptions that he is too dark, too sleepy, too depressing, too samey - it's almost like a superficial cobweb that covers his work and you have to brush it off to really hear the truth (unfortunately there are some magical spiders who like sewing the web back together)

Personally, I think it's very inspiring to see an artist continually moving forwards rather than going round and round in circles (although neither is better, it is refreshing). It still feels to me like Sylvian is breaking new ground - not in the wider 'music industry' context (see baht's earlier comment) or as a world leader in his art form (although he could certainly be a candidate) but just as himself, on his own journey - like he never gives up challenging himself. I like working that way too and Sylvian is becoming more and more valuable a teacher to me and I think Manafon is such an incredibly perfect place for him to be right now.

Of course, I haven't heard the album yet, and only skimmed over the samples, but from the general hum of things I think it's going to be brilliant. I can't...judge it against his other albums...perhaps Blemish...because they are all so different. It's like each is a different world with different creatures, climates and vegetations...although some traits are shared - like Adrian wrote above, I can hear elements from past albums in Manafon, but that's subconsciously inevitable. From the samples, it seems connected to Blemish in some way...like they are in the same solar system...but Manafon is bigger and very very different.

But this is not saying I don't have a spark inside me that wishes to hear Sylvian sing something like Forbidden Colours again, just because however touching the recording is sometimes it feels like a ghost voice, and it would be so nice to hear something that pure and beautiful in the here and now...and to hear him smile like that again... But it doesn't matter. I don't want me or any other fan to have any impact on what Sylvian produces unless he wants us to. He's obviously, independently, endlessly creative...

What I do find strange is that I've spent so much time writing this post as I've never really got the 'adoring fan' thing before!! I guess I just want to show my appreciation in a way more profound than throwing money at the guy...however useful that may be...and to be in the 'in' camp for Manafon! Chet and Simonp your comments make me so excited - I can't wait to hear it! But then....you're right....I do genuinely feel quite 'scared' of Manafon - in a good way - it feels very ominous - so maybe the waiting is just as good!

I'm done now

[becky]

Beautifully and passionately said Hawk!

[karnsculpture]

I'm extremely angry that the post from the japan-pioneers list has been used here, firstly because it gives the impression that it was posted by me on the Nightporter site by me, and secondly because it appears to have been used without the original poster's consent, and whatever your views are on Manafon (which I agree with pretty much - its way to early to dismiss the album), any responses should be at japan-pioneers, not here.

[baht habit]

I'm extremely angry that the post from the japan-pioneers list has been used here. any responses should be at japan-pioneers, not here.

I think that is a rather provincial view. Simonp simply shared it with us, since we are not all members of this list. Reviews, ideas, opinions are cross posted daily. She posted it just as I had shared info posted on Youtube and then subsequently a rebuttal sent to me personally.
I can't quite see the reason to be angry - in your case, extremely angry. I hope you are not angry that I don't agree with you.